git/list[1] front-page[2] threads[3] people[4] search[5] about
 

Re: [PATCH v2 0/4] Use singular "they" when appropriate

From
Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com>
Date
Jun 14, 2021, 00:47 UTC
Message-ID
<xmqqr1h51dce.fsf@gitster.g>
In-Reply-To
<f4488360-bdaf-3e97-69c5-00087f797117@gmail.com>
Derrick Stolee <stolee@gmail.com> writes:
Show 14 quoted lines
> My general approach (as specified in this v2) is:
>
> 1. Use singular "they" over "he" or "she" and other variants.
> 2. If you don't want to write "they", then avoid third-person
>    singular pronouns.
>
> Your approach focuses only on item 2, giving this recommendation:
>
> * Avoid third-person singular pronouns.
>
> I think your change to CodingGuidelines is a bit verbose to get to
> that point, and makes it difficult to understand one goal is to
> avoid gendered pronouns, which I think reduces the chance that a
> new contributor would discover and understand that recommendation.

Is it fair to say that a concise summary of this discussion so far is:

 - Avoiding gendered pronous is a good way to ensure inclusive
   documentation.
 - Our documentation does not have too many instances of "gendered
   pronouns" issue, and all of them can be corrected without
   resorting to singular "they" (to which those who learned in some
   parts of the world may not be ready yet), and it results in more
   concise and clearer description anyway.

I tend to agree that Ævar's approach to guidelines is to cover more general readability tips, not necessarily focusing on avoidance of gendered pronouns, let alone encouraging of "singular they". I think that is overall a good approach to advance the "let's make sure the document is easier to read by everybody" goal than mechanical "he and she are bad, let's use they" does. One thing that the "let's use they" approach does better is that it brings the "gender neutral" concern upfront, exactly because "let's make sure the document is easier to read by everybody" is a superset and does not have to bother singling out the "gender" as an issue.

It may be easier to move the discussion forward if we (half) separated the concerns.

Because the "gender neutral" is so out of place relative to the existing guidelines that focus on ensuring consistency that appear in the "Writing Documentation" section, it is hard to make it into a single bullet item among many others. Perhaps we want to have a new paragraph between "mixes US and UK English" and "Every user-visible change" paragraphs.

    In order to ensure the documentation appears to be inclusive,
    avoid assuming that an unspecified "cast" who appears in
    description and examples is male or female, and think twice
    after writing "he", "him", "she", or "her".  Here are some tips
    to avoid use of gendered pronouns:
    - Rethink if your example or description needs to talk about a
      human "cast" in the first place.  Do you need to say "The
      programmer chooses between X and Y as she sees fit", or is it
      sufficient to say "Valid choices are X and Y" to make the
      resulting sentence more concise and clear?
    - If you need to talk about human "cast", think if the role the
      cast plays can be second person (e.g. "If you want X to
      happen, you'd pass option Y", instead of "If the user wants X
      to happen, she'd ..."), or can be more than one person
      (e.g. "Interested readers can read 'git log -p README' to
      learn the history in their ample spare time" instead of "an
      interested reader" learning in "his" spare time).
    - If you absolutely need to talk about a human "cast" that is
      third-person singluar, you may resort to "singular they" (e.g.
      "A contributor asks their upstream to pull from them").  Note
      however that this sounds ungrammatical and unnatural to those
      who learned English as a second language in some parts of the
      world.

If we were to go that route, I think the first two points (which I didn't give enough thought to be even called a "draft") should be replaced with something like what Ævar wrote in his write-up. Also, I do not mind losing "Note however" from the third point, but in the name of inclusive documentation, it may not be a bad idea to remind ourselves.

Previous: Felipe ContrerasNext: Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget
Message 89 of 124 in “Use singular "they" when appropriate”
  1. 0/4 Use singular "they" when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  2. 2/4 *: use singular they in commentsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  3. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  4. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  5. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  6. Junio C HamanoJun 7, 2021
  7. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  8. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  9. 1/4 Documentation: use singular they when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  10. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  11. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  12. Andrei RybakJun 7, 2021
  13. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  14. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  15. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  16. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  17. Phillip SusiJun 9, 2021
  18. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  19. Phillip SusiJun 11, 2021
  20. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  21. Derrick StoleeJun 10, 2021
  22. Junio C HamanoJun 11, 2021
  23. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  24. Phillip SusiJun 12, 2021
  25. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  26. Kerry, RichardJun 8, 2021
  27. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  28. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  29. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  30. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  31. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  32. Kerry, RichardJun 9, 2021
  33. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  34. Kerry, RichardJun 25, 2021
  35. Junio C HamanoJun 9, 2021
  36. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  37. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  38. Robert KarszniewiczJun 14, 2021
  39. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  40. Junio C HamanoJun 7, 2021
  41. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  42. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  43. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  44. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  45. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  46. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  47. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  48. Phillip SusiJun 9, 2021
  49. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  50. Robert KarszniewiczJun 7, 2021
  51. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  52. Jeff KingJun 8, 2021
  53. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  54. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  55. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  56. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  57. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  58. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  59. Junio C HamanoJun 9, 2021
  60. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  61. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  62. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  63. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  64. Derrick StoleeJun 10, 2021
  65. Johannes SchindelinJun 11, 2021
  66. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  67. 0/4 Use singular "they" when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  68. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  69. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  70. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  71. 2/4 *: use singular they in commentsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  72. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  73. 1/4 Documentation: use singular they when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  74. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  75. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 9, 2021
  76. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  77. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  78. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  79. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  80. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  81. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 10, 2021
  82. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  83. Derrick StoleeJun 11, 2021
  84. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  85. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 13, 2021
  86. Junio C HamanoJun 15, 2021
  87. Derrick StoleeJun 15, 2021
  88. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  89. Junio C HamanoJun 14, 2021
  90. 0/4 Avoid gendered pronounsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  91. 2/4 comments: avoid using the gender of our usersFelipe Contreras via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  92. 1/4 doc: avoid using the gender of other peopleFelipe Contreras via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  93. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  94. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  95. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 15, 2021
  96. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  97. Junio C HamanoJun 16, 2021
  98. Junio C HamanoJun 16, 2021
  99. Bagas SanjayaJun 16, 2021
  100. Derrick StoleeJun 16, 2021
  101. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 16, 2021
  102. Felipe ContrerasJun 16, 2021
  103. Junio C HamanoJun 17, 2021
  104. Derrick StoleeJun 17, 2021
  105. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  106. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 17, 2021
  107. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  108. brian m. carlsonJun 18, 2021
  109. Felipe ContrerasJun 18, 2021
  110. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  111. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 17, 2021
  112. brian m. carlsonJun 18, 2021
  113. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 18, 2021
  114. Felipe ContrerasJun 18, 2021
  115. Junio C HamanoJun 19, 2021
  116. Junio C HamanoJun 28, 2021
  117. Felipe ContrerasJun 29, 2021
  118. Derrick StoleeJun 29, 2021
  119. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 29, 2021
  120. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  121. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  122. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  123. Bagas SanjayaJun 12, 2021
  124. Phillip SusiJun 12, 2021

Read the whole thread, see it on lore, or plain text.

$ cat FOOTERMessages come from the public archive at lore.kernel.org/git, fetched every hour. The front page is chosen and written each morning by an AI editor and can be wrong; the threads themselves are the record. About and API. For agents: an MCP server at https://gitlist.dev/mcp, and any thread, story or person page as Markdown by adding .md to its URL (or sending Accept: text/markdown). Details in /llms.txt.