git/list[1] front-page[2] threads[3] people[4] search[5] about
 

RE: [PATCH 4/4] CodingGuidelines: recommend singular they

From
Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
Date
Jun 7, 2021, 20:00 UTC
Message-ID
<60be7adcdf3b_db9162081e@natae.notmuch>
In-Reply-To
<d2c079264955b3bd6c3a5ef77a9c3684206f8475.1623085069.git.gitgitgadget@gmail.com>
Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget wrote:
Show 8 quoted lines
> From: Derrick Stolee <dstolee@microsoft.com>
> 
> Technical writing seeks to convey information with minimal friction. One
> way that a reader can experience friction is if they encounter a
> description of "a user" that is later simplified using a gendered
> pronoun. If the reader does not consider that pronoun to apply to them,
> then they can experience cognitive dissonance that removes focus from
> the information.

We can solve that easily by using 50% he, and 50% she (I presume you are in the equality of outcome camp in the culture war).

By using an invented pronoun we introduce more friction, especially with the people that just learned English, and just familiarized themselves with the standard English pronouns.

> If we use singular "they/them" pronouns instead of "he/him" or "she/her"
> pronouns, then we can avoid this congitive load on the reader.

I do not consider the singular pronoun "they" to apply to me. I presume others are on the same boat.

Do I not count? If so, why?
> Using singular "they" is also incredibly efficient. Choosing a gendered
> pronoun is usually arbitrary between "he" or "she". Using constructs
> such as "he or she", "s/he", or "(s)he" are more complicated than
> singular "they".
But it's not part of standard English language.
  Of all the turf wars that have complicated the landscape of grammar
  over the past few hundred years, the most complicated and frustrating
  may be that of the singular they.
  It may be the most controversial word use in the English
  language—because it highlights a hole where a better-fitting word
  should go.
  It creates a conflict between writers and editors who want things to
  follow the natural symmetry of Latin, and people who find they the
  only logical option for referring to a single person without a gender
  attached.
  And there has been a lot written about it—it’s something of a hot
  topic this year, thanks to a vote by the American Dialect Society to
  name they its word of the year for 2015.
  Alas, this problem isn’t as easy to solve as a vote from a dialect
  society. The problem is something of an emotional one—and it’s sparked
  debate for centuries.
  Really, if this problem is ever to go away, it’s going to be up to
  professional copy editors to speak up. And at least some of them
  appear to have made peace with the change.
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-linguistic-turf-wars-over-the-singular-they

This is a problem for linguists, copy editors, and society in general. Not a software project.

By introducing rules that presume an outcome fiercly debated *at this very moment* you are introducing more friction.

Show 7 quoted lines
> When choosing a gendered pronoun, that pronoun no longer applies to
> nearly half of possible readers. Even if we alternated between "he/him"
> and "she/her" perfectly evenly, we would still expect male and female
> readers to experience an incorrect pronoun half the time. However, some
> readers will not prescribe to either of these binary genders. Those
> readers hence suffer an incorrect pronoun the entire time. Singular
> "they" applies to every reader.
This is a problem of the English language, not Git's documentation.
Show 7 quoted lines
> Perhaps due to similar reasons, official style guides have changed their
> stance on singuler "they" in recent years. For example, the APA style
> guide changed their official recommendation in 2019 [1]. The MLA
> handbook also references helpful ways to use singular "they" [2]. While
> not fully endorsing it, the Chicago Manual of Style has removed its
> blanket ban on singular "they" [3] (the previous recommendation was to
> only use "it" as a singular non-gendered pronoun).

This would be a killer argument if language was prescriptive, but it's not. At least half of linguists (probably way more) are on the descriptivist side.

Most writers ignore style guides and write in the way they see others write. Not how anyone prescribes.

Show 11 quoted lines
> While not all styleguides are updating their recommendations, we can
> make a choice as a project to adopt the concept because of the
> efficiencies above, as well as the benefits of increased inclusion.
> 
> To futher justify singular "they" as an acceptable grammatical concept,
> I include the careful research of brian m. carlson who collected their
> thoughts on this matter [2] (lightly edited):
> 
>   Singular "they" has been used by native English speakers as part of
>   the language for over half a millennium and is widely used and
>   understood. This usage is specified in Merriam Webster[3]:
Again, I already responded to this argument:

A similar thing happens with the word "nucular" [2]; it is used by native English speakers as part of the language for many decades and is widely used and understood.

Does that mean it's a valid word? Maybe.
But does that make "nuclear" invalid? No.

You can use "nucular" if you want (many people do). I will use "nuclear".

Both can be valid, and we shouldn't demand the use of one over the other.

Show 12 quoted lines
>   Linguists fit roughly into two camps: prescriptive and descriptive.
>   The former specify rules for people to use, and the latter document
>   language as it is actually used without forming a judgment.
> 
>   Some prescriptivists think it is acceptable, and some do not. But
>   descriptivists will rightly note that it is and has been commonly
>   used in English across countries, cultures, and contexts for an
>   extended period of time and is therefore generally accepted by most
>   English speakers as a normal part of the language.  Since we are
>   writing text for an English language audience who are mostly not
>   linguists, we should probably consider using the language that most
>   people will use in this context.
This is an argument against your proposal:
  1. It dismantles the need to heed style guides
  2. If it was true, we would already see wideslread use of the singular
     "they" in the documentation (and we don't)
  3. If we follow the descriptivist approach, the we should let the
     writers of the documentation follow what they think is best, not
     *prescrive* what prononoun they shall use

And even if this was an argument in favor of "they", you still need to provide an argument against "she", or "he.

Show 15 quoted lines
> If we refer to a specific person, then using a gendered pronoun is
> appropriate. Examples within the Git codebase include:
> 
> * References to real people (e.g. Linus Torvalds, "the Git maintainer").
>   Do not misgender real people. If there is any doubt to the gender of a
>   person, then use singular "they".
> 
> * References to fictional people with clear genders (e.g. Alice and
>   Bob).
> 
> * Sample text used in test cases (e.g t3702, t6432).
> 
> * The official text of the GPL license contains uses of "he or she", but
>   modifying the license this way is not within the scope of the Git
>   project.
This is linguistic prescription [3]:
  Linguistic prescription, or prescriptive grammar, is the attempt to
  establish rules defining preferred or correct usage of language.
You can't eat your cake and have it too.
Cheers.

[1] https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-linguistic-turf-wars-over-the-singular-they [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucular [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription

-- 
Felipe Contreras
Previous: Felipe ContrerasNext: Phillip Susi
Message 47 of 124 in “Use singular "they" when appropriate”
  1. 0/4 Use singular "they" when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  2. 2/4 *: use singular they in commentsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  3. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  4. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  5. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  6. Junio C HamanoJun 7, 2021
  7. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  8. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  9. 1/4 Documentation: use singular they when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  10. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  11. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  12. Andrei RybakJun 7, 2021
  13. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  14. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  15. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  16. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  17. Phillip SusiJun 9, 2021
  18. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  19. Phillip SusiJun 11, 2021
  20. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  21. Derrick StoleeJun 10, 2021
  22. Junio C HamanoJun 11, 2021
  23. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  24. Phillip SusiJun 12, 2021
  25. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  26. Kerry, RichardJun 8, 2021
  27. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  28. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  29. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  30. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  31. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  32. Kerry, RichardJun 9, 2021
  33. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  34. Kerry, RichardJun 25, 2021
  35. Junio C HamanoJun 9, 2021
  36. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  37. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  38. Robert KarszniewiczJun 14, 2021
  39. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  40. Junio C HamanoJun 7, 2021
  41. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  42. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  43. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  44. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  45. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  46. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  47. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  48. Phillip SusiJun 9, 2021
  49. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  50. Robert KarszniewiczJun 7, 2021
  51. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  52. Jeff KingJun 8, 2021
  53. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  54. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  55. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  56. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  57. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  58. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  59. Junio C HamanoJun 9, 2021
  60. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  61. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  62. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  63. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  64. Derrick StoleeJun 10, 2021
  65. Johannes SchindelinJun 11, 2021
  66. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  67. 0/4 Use singular "they" when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  68. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  69. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  70. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  71. 2/4 *: use singular they in commentsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  72. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  73. 1/4 Documentation: use singular they when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  74. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  75. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 9, 2021
  76. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  77. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  78. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  79. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  80. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  81. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 10, 2021
  82. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  83. Derrick StoleeJun 11, 2021
  84. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  85. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 13, 2021
  86. Junio C HamanoJun 15, 2021
  87. Derrick StoleeJun 15, 2021
  88. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  89. Junio C HamanoJun 14, 2021
  90. 0/4 Avoid gendered pronounsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  91. 2/4 comments: avoid using the gender of our usersFelipe Contreras via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  92. 1/4 doc: avoid using the gender of other peopleFelipe Contreras via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  93. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  94. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  95. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 15, 2021
  96. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  97. Junio C HamanoJun 16, 2021
  98. Junio C HamanoJun 16, 2021
  99. Bagas SanjayaJun 16, 2021
  100. Derrick StoleeJun 16, 2021
  101. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 16, 2021
  102. Felipe ContrerasJun 16, 2021
  103. Junio C HamanoJun 17, 2021
  104. Derrick StoleeJun 17, 2021
  105. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  106. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 17, 2021
  107. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  108. brian m. carlsonJun 18, 2021
  109. Felipe ContrerasJun 18, 2021
  110. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  111. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 17, 2021
  112. brian m. carlsonJun 18, 2021
  113. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 18, 2021
  114. Felipe ContrerasJun 18, 2021
  115. Junio C HamanoJun 19, 2021
  116. Junio C HamanoJun 28, 2021
  117. Felipe ContrerasJun 29, 2021
  118. Derrick StoleeJun 29, 2021
  119. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 29, 2021
  120. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  121. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  122. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  123. Bagas SanjayaJun 12, 2021
  124. Phillip SusiJun 12, 2021

Read the whole thread, see it on lore, or plain text.

$ cat FOOTERMessages come from the public archive at lore.kernel.org/git, fetched every hour. The front page is chosen and written each morning by an AI editor and can be wrong; the threads themselves are the record. About and API. For agents: an MCP server at https://gitlist.dev/mcp, and any thread, story or person page as Markdown by adding .md to its URL (or sending Accept: text/markdown). Details in /llms.txt.