git/list[1] front-page[2] threads[3] people[4] search[5] about
 

RE: [PATCH 1/4] Documentation: use singular they when appropriate

From
Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com>
Date
Jun 7, 2021, 21:36 UTC
Message-ID
<60be91757c6ca_db80d2086e@natae.notmuch>
In-Reply-To
<afc51c5e6edec7935a6d0d0a05d396e11311ca6c.1623085069.git.gitgitgadget@gmail.com>
Derrick Stolee via GitGitGadget wrote:
Show 9 quoted lines
> From: Derrick Stolee <dstolee@microsoft.com>
> --- a/Documentation/SubmittingPatches
> +++ b/Documentation/SubmittingPatches
> @@ -373,7 +373,7 @@ If you like, you can put extra tags at the end:
>  . `Acked-by:` says that the person who is more familiar with the area
>    the patch attempts to modify liked the patch.
>  . `Reviewed-by:`, unlike the other tags, can only be offered by the
> -  reviewer and means that she is completely satisfied that the patch
> +  reviewer and means that they are completely satisfied that the patch
This sounds completely alien to me.

Granted, I'm not a native English speaker, but aren't you supposed to be trying to be inclusive?

It took me a considerable amount of time to train my mind to think in English, and now I don't have to think in Spanish, but "he" is "él", "she" is "ella", and "they" is "ellos", or "ellas". And that has been more than enough to read 99.9% of documents I encounter without problems.

And now you come out of the blue with a pronoun that doesn't match any of my mental models.

There's many Spanish speakers out there, but this probably extends to Italians, French, and all the other Latin-based languages.

But to be honest I read a lot of English, and I virtually never encounter this usage. And at least 58% of the Usage Panel of The American Heritage Dictionary [1] agrees with me.

I have read Steven Pinker's (a renowned linguist) style manual: The Sense of Style. He specifically mentions singular "they", and he explains the cases where it makes sense, and where it doesn't.

It is not so straight-forward, and to show why, here's an example:
  A contemporary example with an unambiguous female referent comes from
  a spoken interview with Sean Ono Lennon in which he specified the kind
  of person he was seeking as a romantic partner: “Any girl who is
  interested must simply be born female and between the ages of 18 and
  45. They must have an IQ above 130 and they must be honest.”

In this case "they" is grammatically singular, yes, but it is *psychologically* plural, since the person is picked from a pool.

I don't know how a native speaker parses this "they", but as a Spanish speaker I cannot leave it unspecified. "They must" translates to "deben", which is plural, if it was singular it would be "debe", which in English would be "she must".

I have read many instances where English speakers argue it's a singular "they" but to me it's not. According to Steven Pinker it's because it's psychologically plural.

Pinker uses singular "they" very occasionally, and only with semantically plural antecedents, the rest of the times he alternates between he and she freely. And I try to do so as well.

This is his conclusion in his style manual:
  Because of these complexities, writers always have to consider the
  full inventory of devices that the English language makes available to
  convey generic information, each imperfect for a different reason: he,
  she, he or she, they, a plural antecedent, replacing the pronoun, and
  who knows, perhaps someday even using thon.
  For some purists, these complexities provide an excuse to dismiss all
  concerns with gender inclusiveness and stick with the flawed option of
  he. Gelernter complains, “Why should I worry about feminist ideology
  while I write? . . . Writing is a tricky business that requires one’s
  whole concentration.” But the reaction is disingenuous. Every sentence
  requires a writer to grapple with tradeoffs between clarity,
  concision, tone, cadence, accuracy, and other values. Why should the
  value of not excluding women be the only one whose weight is set to
  zero?

He does however, provide tips to avoid some hurdles, one is to express quantified descriptions as plural, so we would have:

  `Reviewed-by:`, unlike the other tags, can only be offered by the
  reviewers and means that they are completely satisfied that the patch
  is ready for application.  It is usually offered only after a
   detailed review.
That reads perfectly fine to me.
Show 10 quoted lines
> --- a/Documentation/git-push.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/git-push.txt
> @@ -244,8 +244,8 @@ Imagine that you have to rebase what you have already published.
>  You will have to bypass the "must fast-forward" rule in order to
>  replace the history you originally published with the rebased history.
>  If somebody else built on top of your original history while you are
> -rebasing, the tip of the branch at the remote may advance with her
> -commit, and blindly pushing with `--force` will lose her work.
> +rebasing, the tip of the branch at the remote may advance with their
> +commit, and blindly pushing with `--force` will lose their work.

This one does read correctly to me, and is in fact better than "she". And it is because "somebody" is semantically plural: he or she comes from a pool of people.

As stated above, writing is a tricky business, you can't just s/s?he/they/.

Not even renowned linguists dare to prescribe point-blank rules like you are trying to do.

This is part of Usage Note on "singular they" from The American Heritage Dictionary:

  Resistance remains strongest when the sentence refers to a specific
  individual whose gender is unknown, rather than to a generic
  individual representative of anyone: in our 2015 survey, 58 percent of
  the Panel found We thank the anonymous reviewer for their helpful
  comments unacceptable. A sentence with a generic antecedent, A person
  at that level should not have to keep track of the hours they put in,
  was rejected by 48 percent (a substantial change from our 1996 survey,
  in which 80 percent rejected this same sentence). As for the use of
  they with antecedents such as anyone and everyone, pronouns that are
  grammatically singular but carry a plural meaning, by 2008, a majority
  of the Panel accepted such sentences as If anyone calls, tell them I
  can’t come to the phone (56 percent) and Everyone returned to their
  seats (59 percent).
I do not think the Git project should jump into these muddy waters.
Cheers.
[1] https://ahdictionary.tumblr.com/post/147597257733/updated-usage-note-they
-- 
Felipe Contreras
Previous: Felipe ContrerasNext: Phillip Susi
Message 16 of 124 in “Use singular "they" when appropriate”
  1. 0/4 Use singular "they" when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  2. 2/4 *: use singular they in commentsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  3. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  4. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  5. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  6. Junio C HamanoJun 7, 2021
  7. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  8. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  9. 1/4 Documentation: use singular they when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  10. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  11. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  12. Andrei RybakJun 7, 2021
  13. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  14. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  15. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  16. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  17. Phillip SusiJun 9, 2021
  18. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  19. Phillip SusiJun 11, 2021
  20. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  21. Derrick StoleeJun 10, 2021
  22. Junio C HamanoJun 11, 2021
  23. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  24. Phillip SusiJun 12, 2021
  25. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  26. Kerry, RichardJun 8, 2021
  27. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  28. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  29. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  30. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  31. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  32. Kerry, RichardJun 9, 2021
  33. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  34. Kerry, RichardJun 25, 2021
  35. Junio C HamanoJun 9, 2021
  36. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  37. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  38. Robert KarszniewiczJun 14, 2021
  39. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  40. Junio C HamanoJun 7, 2021
  41. Derrick StoleeJun 7, 2021
  42. Junio C HamanoJun 8, 2021
  43. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  44. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  45. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 7, 2021
  46. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  47. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  48. Phillip SusiJun 9, 2021
  49. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  50. Robert KarszniewiczJun 7, 2021
  51. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  52. Jeff KingJun 8, 2021
  53. Felipe ContrerasJun 8, 2021
  54. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  55. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  56. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  57. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  58. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  59. Junio C HamanoJun 9, 2021
  60. Derrick StoleeJun 9, 2021
  61. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 7, 2021
  62. Emily ShafferJun 8, 2021
  63. Johannes SchindelinJun 10, 2021
  64. Derrick StoleeJun 10, 2021
  65. Johannes SchindelinJun 11, 2021
  66. Felipe ContrerasJun 7, 2021
  67. 0/4 Use singular "they" when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  68. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  69. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  70. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  71. 2/4 *: use singular they in commentsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  72. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  73. 1/4 Documentation: use singular they when appropriateDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 9, 2021
  74. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  75. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 9, 2021
  76. Felipe ContrerasJun 9, 2021
  77. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  78. Junio C HamanoJun 10, 2021
  79. Felipe ContrerasJun 10, 2021
  80. brian m. carlsonJun 10, 2021
  81. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 10, 2021
  82. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  83. Derrick StoleeJun 11, 2021
  84. Felipe ContrerasJun 11, 2021
  85. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 13, 2021
  86. Junio C HamanoJun 15, 2021
  87. Derrick StoleeJun 15, 2021
  88. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  89. Junio C HamanoJun 14, 2021
  90. 0/4 Avoid gendered pronounsDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  91. 2/4 comments: avoid using the gender of our usersFelipe Contreras via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  92. 1/4 doc: avoid using the gender of other peopleFelipe Contreras via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  93. 3/4 *: fix typosDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  94. 4/4 CodingGuidelines: recommend singular theyDerrick Stolee via GitGitGadget, Jun 15, 2021
  95. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 15, 2021
  96. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  97. Junio C HamanoJun 16, 2021
  98. Junio C HamanoJun 16, 2021
  99. Bagas SanjayaJun 16, 2021
  100. Derrick StoleeJun 16, 2021
  101. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 16, 2021
  102. Felipe ContrerasJun 16, 2021
  103. Junio C HamanoJun 17, 2021
  104. Derrick StoleeJun 17, 2021
  105. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  106. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 17, 2021
  107. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  108. brian m. carlsonJun 18, 2021
  109. Felipe ContrerasJun 18, 2021
  110. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  111. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 17, 2021
  112. brian m. carlsonJun 18, 2021
  113. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 18, 2021
  114. Felipe ContrerasJun 18, 2021
  115. Junio C HamanoJun 19, 2021
  116. Junio C HamanoJun 28, 2021
  117. Felipe ContrerasJun 29, 2021
  118. Derrick StoleeJun 29, 2021
  119. Ævar Arnfjörð BjarmasonJun 29, 2021
  120. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  121. Felipe ContrerasJun 17, 2021
  122. Felipe ContrerasJun 15, 2021
  123. Bagas SanjayaJun 12, 2021
  124. Phillip SusiJun 12, 2021

Read the whole thread, see it on lore, or plain text.

$ cat FOOTERMessages come from the public archive at lore.kernel.org/git, fetched every hour. The front page is chosen and written each morning by an AI editor and can be wrong; the threads themselves are the record. About and API. For agents: an MCP server at https://gitlist.dev/mcp, and any thread, story or person page as Markdown by adding .md to its URL (or sending Accept: text/markdown). Details in /llms.txt.