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Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Subject: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

## tl;dr

11 messages between Sep 22, 2012 and Sep 24, 2012.

replies: 10people: 8as markdown or json

Sascha Cunz· Sep 22, 2012, 21:57 UTC · lore

As I know how hard translations can be, esp. with that much technical terms inside, I'm usually expecting _not_ to yield the same result when translating a software's translation back to English.

However, git-rebase just threw these two sentences at me (And though i know their meaning, i couldn't get the meaning from the message, it gave). Both are in context of starting a rebase while one is already in progress.

first is:

Original: ... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.

German git translation: ... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist.

And a re-translation back to English from my understanding as native German speaker: ... and it would be astonishing (=i'd be surprised), if a rebase was already in progress.

And second:

Original: I am stopping in case you still have something valuable there.

German git translation: Es wird angehalten, falls bereits etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist.

I wanted to point out that "etwas Nützliches" is more "something useful" that "something valuable". But the more I thought about it, the more it started to confuse me (even the original text) - and now I feel like I don't understand the meaning of the last sentence at all; neither in English nor in the German translation: After removing the directory with all rebase-information inside it, WHERE should something valuable still be left over? Is it referring to my working tree?

So, for completeness, the full English message:
	It seems that there is already a rebase-merge directory, and
	I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.  If that is the
	case, please try
     	   git rebase (--continue | --abort | --skip)
	If that is not the case, please
	        rm -fr "/work/lg2/src/.git/rebase-merge"
	and run me again.  I am stopping in case you still have something
	valuable there.
Sascha
Ralf Thielow· Sep 23, 2012, 15:04 UTC · re: Sascha Cunz · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org> wrote:
> As I know how hard translations can be, esp. with that much technical terms
> inside, I'm usually expecting _not_ to yield the same result when translating
> a software's translation back to English.
>

Yeah, I think the goal is not making translations which are looking nearly the same when somebody translates them back to English in the first place.

Show 17 quoted lines
> However, git-rebase just threw these two sentences at me (And though i know
> their meaning, i couldn't get the meaning from the message, it gave). Both are
> in context of starting a rebase while one is already in progress.
>
> first is:
>
> Original:
> ... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.
>
> German git translation:
> ... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist.
>
> And a re-translation back to English from my understanding as native German
> speaker:
> ... and it would be astonishing (=i'd be surprised), if a rebase was already
> in progress.
>

We try to avoid translating terms like "I wonder if.." and similar as "ich wundere mich", because it's very unusual in German messages of computer programs. Translators should have the freedom to reword terms a bit to make a more optimal translation, but the meaning must not be lost, and I can't say that this is the case. Translate the term "in the middle of" word-by-word would result in "in der Mitte eines", which can be interpreted as a place somewhere or that an action is in progress. To avoid a possible confusion, we decided to translate this term as "im Gange sein" ("be in progress") in the whole translation. I also think that "in der Mitte einer Zusammenführung sein" doesn't sound really good. It tends to mean a place, not an action.

Show 10 quoted lines
> And second:
>
> Original:
> I am stopping in case you still have something valuable there.
>
> German git translation:
> Es wird angehalten, falls bereits etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist.
>
> I wanted to point out that "etwas Nützliches" is more "something useful" that
> "something valuable". But the more I thought about it, the more it started to

I've been thinking about possible different translations, and the only one I have in mind is "wertvoll". But translating "valuable" as "wertvoll" ("bereits etwas Wertvolles vorhanden") sounds a bit like "we've found a treasure", instead of something which has a value in the meaning of content. I think having a translation which is more like "useful" than "valuable" does also hit the point of the message, doesn't it?

Show 7 quoted lines
> confuse me (even the original text) - and now I feel like I don't understand
> the meaning of the last sentence at all; neither in English nor in the German
> translation:
> After removing the directory with all rebase-information inside it, WHERE
> should something valuable still be left over? Is it referring to my working
> tree?
>

Yeah, I think it means the working tree and/or the index which would make sense.

Ralf
knittl· Sep 23, 2012, 15:36 UTC · re: Ralf Thielow · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Sharing my thoughts on this one, …
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Ralf Thielow <ralf.thielow@gmail.com> wrote:
Show 30 quoted lines
> On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org> wrote:
>> However, git-rebase just threw these two sentences at me (And though i know
>> their meaning, i couldn't get the meaning from the message, it gave). Both are
>> in context of starting a rebase while one is already in progress.
>>
>> first is:
>>
>> Original:
>> ... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.
>>
>> German git translation:
>> ... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist.
>>
>> And a re-translation back to English from my understanding as native German
>> speaker:
>> ... and it would be astonishing (=i'd be surprised), if a rebase was already
>> in progress.
>>
>
> We try to avoid translating terms like "I wonder if.." and similar as
> "ich wundere mich", because it's very unusual in German messages
> of computer programs. Translators should have the freedom to reword
> terms a bit to make a more optimal translation, but the meaning must
> not be lost, and I can't say that this is the case.
> Translate the term "in the middle of"  word-by-word would result in
> "in der Mitte eines", which can be interpreted as a place somewhere
> or that an action is in progress. To avoid a possible confusion, we
> decided to translate this term as "im Gange sein" ("be in progress") in
> the whole translation. I also think that "in der Mitte einer Zusammenführung
> sein" doesn't sound really good. It tends to mean a place, not an action.

What about a simple "Eventuell wird bereits ein andere Neuaufbau/rebase ausgeführt"?

And, iirc, "I wonder if" translates to "Ich frage mich, ob …"
Show 21 quoted lines
>> And second:
>>
>> Original:
>> I am stopping in case you still have something valuable there.
>>
>> German git translation:
>> Es wird angehalten, falls bereits etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist.
>>
>> I wanted to point out that "etwas Nützliches" is more "something useful" that
>> "something valuable". But the more I thought about it, the more it started to
>
> I've been thinking about possible different translations, and the only
> one I have in
> mind is "wertvoll". But translating "valuable" as "wertvoll" ("bereits
> etwas Wertvolles
> vorhanden") sounds a bit like "we've found a treasure", instead of
> something which
> has a value in the meaning of content. I think having a translation
> which is more
> like "useful" than "valuable" does also hit the point of the message,
> doesn't it?

What about "wichtig"? I think that transfers the meaning pretty well. "Es wird angehalten, um den Verlust wichtiger Infos zu vermeiden" maybe?

I hope the above spends some inspiration :)

Cheers, Daniel

-- 
typed with http://neo-layout.org
Sascha Cunz· Sep 23, 2012, 15:52 UTC · re: knittl · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Am Sonntag, 23. September 2012, 17:36:08 schrieb knittl:
> Sharing my thoughts on this one, …
> 
[...]
Show 5 quoted lines
> What about "wichtig"? I think that transfers the meaning pretty well.
> "Es wird angehalten, um den Verlust wichtiger Infos zu vermeiden"
> maybe?
> 
> I hope the above spends some inspiration :)

Thanks, Daniel, _this_ translation now let me even understand the English wording: I somehow added an implicit second "again" in that line, thinking this information is associated with the words "and run me again".

But what it actually wants to say, is probably: "I won't remove the rebase- merge directory on your behalf, because you might have something valuable left over _from a previous rebase / merge run_"

Sascha
Sascha Cunz· Sep 23, 2012, 15:41 UTC · re: Ralf Thielow · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Am Sonntag, 23. September 2012, 17:04:15 schrieb Ralf Thielow:
> On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org> 
wrote:
Show 7 quoted lines
> > As I know how hard translations can be, esp. with that much technical
> > terms
> > inside, I'm usually expecting _not_ to yield the same result when
> > translating a software's translation back to English.
> 
> Yeah, I think the goal is not making translations which are looking nearly
> the same when somebody translates them back to English in the first place.

Exactly. The meaning is more important then the exact wording. Please consider this:

	Es wurden Neuaufbau- / Zusammenführungs-Informationen gefunden.
	Falls ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist, versuche bitte:
		git rebase (--continue | --abort | --skip)
	Sollte dies nicht der Fall sein, können die Informationen durch
		rm -fr "$(GIT_DIR)/rebase-merge"
	entfernt werden. Es wird angehalten, falls etwas Schützenswertes
	gefunden werden sollte.

It sounds way cleaner (to me at least) and transports all of the meaning. Esp. for the last sentence, it's very hard to find something in German that doesn't sound 'destructive'.

Btw: In the past I've seen quite a few topics on translation on this list - is 
this at all the right place for that kind of discussion?
Sascha
Show 68 quoted lines
> > However, git-rebase just threw these two sentences at me (And though i
> > know
> > their meaning, i couldn't get the meaning from the message, it gave). Both
> > are in context of starting a rebase while one is already in progress.
> > 
> > first is:
> > 
> > Original:
> > ... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.
> > 
> > German git translation:
> > ... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist.
> > 
> > And a re-translation back to English from my understanding as native
> > German
> > speaker:
> > ... and it would be astonishing (=i'd be surprised), if a rebase was
> > already in progress.
> 
> We try to avoid translating terms like "I wonder if.." and similar as
> "ich wundere mich", because it's very unusual in German messages
> of computer programs. Translators should have the freedom to reword
> terms a bit to make a more optimal translation, but the meaning must
> not be lost, and I can't say that this is the case.
> Translate the term "in the middle of"  word-by-word would result in
> "in der Mitte eines", which can be interpreted as a place somewhere
> or that an action is in progress. To avoid a possible confusion, we
> decided to translate this term as "im Gange sein" ("be in progress") in
> the whole translation. I also think that "in der Mitte einer Zusammenführung
> sein" doesn't sound really good. It tends to mean a place, not an action.
> > And second:
> > 
> > Original:
> > I am stopping in case you still have something valuable there.
> > 
> > German git translation:
> > Es wird angehalten, falls bereits etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist.
> > 
> > I wanted to point out that "etwas Nützliches" is more "something useful"
> > that "something valuable". But the more I thought about it, the more it
> > started to
> I've been thinking about possible different translations, and the only
> one I have in
> mind is "wertvoll". But translating "valuable" as "wertvoll" ("bereits
> etwas Wertvolles
> vorhanden") sounds a bit like "we've found a treasure", instead of
> something which
> has a value in the meaning of content. I think having a translation
> which is more
> like "useful" than "valuable" does also hit the point of the message,
> doesn't it?
> 
> > confuse me (even the original text) - and now I feel like I don't
> > understand the meaning of the last sentence at all; neither in English
> > nor in the German translation:
> > After removing the directory with all rebase-information inside it, WHERE
> > should something valuable still be left over? Is it referring to my
> > working
> > tree?
> 
> Yeah, I think it means the working tree and/or the index which would make
> sense.
> 
> Ralf
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Ralf Thielow· Sep 23, 2012, 17:34 UTC · re: Sascha Cunz · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org> wrote:
> Exactly. The meaning is more important then the exact wording. Please consider
> this:
>
>         Es wurden Neuaufbau- / Zusammenführungs-Informationen gefunden.

We can't change the "... Verzeichnis *rebase-merge* ..." part of the message, because "rebase-merge" is a substitution and we have to use all of them.

Show 10 quoted lines
>         Falls ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist, versuche bitte:
>                 git rebase (--continue | --abort | --skip)
>         Sollte dies nicht der Fall sein, können die Informationen durch
>                 rm -fr "$(GIT_DIR)/rebase-merge"
>         entfernt werden. Es wird angehalten, falls etwas Schützenswertes
>         gefunden werden sollte.
>
> It sounds way cleaner (to me at least) and transports all of the meaning. Esp.
> for  the last sentence, it's very hard to find something in German that
> doesn't sound 'destructive'.

Not sure why you change "vorhanden ist" to "gefunden werden sollte". Maybe we should use a combination? See below.

>
> Btw: In the past I've seen quite a few topics on translation on this list - is
> this at all the right place for that kind of discussion?
>

Different translation teams use different places for discussions. The German uses this list.

Like this, maybe.
[PATCH] l10n: de.po: improve translation of a rebase message

The word "still" was translated as "bereits", change it to "noch". "valuable" was translated as "nützlich" which is more like "useful" than "valuable", change it to "schützenswert".

Noticed-by: Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org>
Signed-off-by: Ralf Thielow <ralf.thielow@gmail.com>
diff --git a/po/de.po b/po/de.po
index 2739bc0..7fc0185 100644
--- a/po/de.po
+++ b/po/de.po
@@ -5756,8 +5756,8 @@ msgstr ""
 "\t$cmd_live_rebase\n"
 "Wenn das nicht der Fall ist, probiere bitte\n"
 "\t$cmd_clear_stale_rebase\n"
-"und führe dieses Kommando nochmal aus. Es wird angehalten, falls bereits\n"
-"etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist."
+"und führe dieses Kommando nochmal aus. Es wird angehalten, falls noch\n"
+"etwas Schützenswertes vorhanden ist."

 #: git-rebase.sh:395
 #, sh-format
Sascha Cunz· Sep 23, 2012, 17:57 UTC · re: Ralf Thielow · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Am Sonntag, 23. September 2012, 19:34:23 schrieb Ralf Thielow:
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 5:41 PM, Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org> 
wrote:
Show 24 quoted lines
> > Exactly. The meaning is more important then the exact wording. Please
> > consider> 
> > this:
> >         Es wurden Neuaufbau- / Zusammenführungs-Informationen gefunden.
> 
> We can't change the "... Verzeichnis *rebase-merge* ..." part of the
> message, because "rebase-merge" is a substitution and we have to use all of
> them.
> >         Falls ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist, versuche bitte:
> >                 git rebase (--continue | --abort | --skip)
> >         
> >         Sollte dies nicht der Fall sein, können die Informationen durch
> >         
> >                 rm -fr "$(GIT_DIR)/rebase-merge"
> >         
> >         entfernt werden. Es wird angehalten, falls etwas Schützenswertes
> >         gefunden werden sollte.
> > 
> > It sounds way cleaner (to me at least) and transports all of the meaning.
> > Esp. for  the last sentence, it's very hard to find something in German
> > that doesn't sound 'destructive'.
> 
> Not sure why you change "vorhanden ist" to "gefunden werden sollte".
> Maybe we should use a combination? See below.

Probably a result of my initial misunderstanding of the original text. As I pointed out in another mail on this thread, I think the real meaning is: "Es wird [jetzt] angehalten, _weil_ dort [im Rebase-Merge Verzeichnis] noch etwas Schützenswertes vorhanden sein könnte".

Show 7 quoted lines
> > Btw: In the past I've seen quite a few topics on translation on this list
> > - is this at all the right place for that kind of discussion?
> 
> Different translation teams use different places for discussions.
> The German uses this list.
> 
> Like this, maybe.
Yes, that is already much better.
Show 29 quoted lines
> [PATCH] l10n: de.po: improve translation of a rebase message
> 
> The word "still" was translated as "bereits", change
> it to "noch". "valuable" was translated as "nützlich"
> which is more like "useful" than "valuable", change it
> to "schützenswert".
> 
> Noticed-by: Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org>
> Signed-off-by: Ralf Thielow <ralf.thielow@gmail.com>
> 
> diff --git a/po/de.po b/po/de.po
> index 2739bc0..7fc0185 100644
> --- a/po/de.po
> +++ b/po/de.po
> @@ -5756,8 +5756,8 @@ msgstr ""
>  "\t$cmd_live_rebase\n"
>  "Wenn das nicht der Fall ist, probiere bitte\n"
>  "\t$cmd_clear_stale_rebase\n"
> -"und führe dieses Kommando nochmal aus. Es wird angehalten, falls
> bereits\n" -"etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist."
> +"und führe dieses Kommando nochmal aus. Es wird angehalten, falls noch\n"
> +"etwas Schützenswertes vorhanden ist."
> 
>  #: git-rebase.sh:395
>  #, sh-format
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
Jan Engelhardt· Sep 23, 2012, 17:29 UTC · re: Ralf Thielow · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

On Sunday 2012-09-23 17:04, Ralf Thielow wrote:
Show 10 quoted lines
>>
>> Original:
>> ... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.
>>
>> German git translation:
>> ... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist.
>
>We try to avoid translating terms like "I wonder if.." and similar as
>"ich wundere mich", because it's very unusual in German messages
>of computer programs.

Even "I wonder if" is unusual, since programs normally don't have any personality.

Show 9 quoted lines
>Translators should have the freedom to reword
>terms a bit to make a more optimal translation, but the meaning must
>not be lost, and I can't say that this is the case.
>Translate the term "in the middle of"  word-by-word would result in
>"in der Mitte eines", which can be interpreted as a place somewhere
>or that an action is in progress. To avoid a possible confusion, we
>decided to translate this term as "im Gange sein" ("be in progress") in
>the whole translation. I also think that "in der Mitte einer Zusammenführung
>sein" doesn't sound really good. It tends to mean a place, not an action.
Why not just write
    ...und es scheint, dass gerade ein Rebase durchgeführt wird.
Show 8 quoted lines
>> Original:
>> I am stopping in case you still have something valuable there.
>>
>> German git translation:
>> Es wird angehalten, falls bereits etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist.
>>
>> I wanted to point out that "etwas Nützliches" is more "something useful" that
>> "something valuable". But the more I thought about it, the more it started to

In fact, "still" is not "bereits" but "noch". Do I smell somebody fed this through an automatic translation program?

Maybe I should dig up the (real) original .po files and see what I wrote there.

Greg Troxel· Sep 24, 2012, 12:15 UTC · re: Ralf Thielow · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Ralf Thielow <ralf.thielow@gmail.com> writes:
Show 11 quoted lines
> On Sat, Sep 22, 2012 at 11:57 PM, Sascha Cunz <sascha-ml@babbelbox.org> wrote:
>> Original:
>> ... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.
>>
>> German git translation:
>> ... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist.
>>
>> And a re-translation back to English from my understanding as native German
>> speaker:
>> ... and it would be astonishing (=i'd be surprised), if a rebase was already
>> in progress.

Perhaps the English wording should be made more clear; the fact that translation is difficult is a clue that it may be hard to understand, particularly for non-native-English-Speakers (albeit an ambiguous one; I realize translation is hard).

> We try to avoid translating terms like "I wonder if.." and similar as
> "ich wundere mich", because it's very unusual in German messages
> of computer programs. Translators should have the freedom to reword
It's unusual in English too :-)
Thomas Hochstein· Sep 24, 2012, 19:45 UTC · re: Ralf Thielow · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Ralf Thielow schrieb:
> We try to avoid translating terms like "I wonder if.." and similar as
> "ich wundere mich",

"I wonder if ..." is not "ich wundere mich" (that's a false friend), but "Ich frage mich ...".

"... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase" does not mean "... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist", but "offenbar / möglicherweise / vermutlich ist ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange" or something like that. Exactly the opposite of the translation, that is.

-thh
Michael J Gruber· Sep 24, 2012, 07:33 UTC · re: Sascha Cunz · lore

Re: Message from 'git-rebase'; German translation

Sascha Cunz venit, vidit, dixit 22.09.2012 23:57:
Show 51 quoted lines
> As I know how hard translations can be, esp. with that much technical terms 
> inside, I'm usually expecting _not_ to yield the same result when translating 
> a software's translation back to English.
> 
> However, git-rebase just threw these two sentences at me (And though i know 
> their meaning, i couldn't get the meaning from the message, it gave). Both are 
> in context of starting a rebase while one is already in progress.
> 
> first is:
> 
> Original:
> ... and I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.
> 
> German git translation:
> ... und es wäre verwunderlich, wenn ein Neuaufbau bereits im Gange ist.
> 
> And a re-translation back to English from my understanding as native German 
> speaker:
> ... and it would be astonishing (=i'd be surprised), if a rebase was already 
> in progress.
> 
> And second:
> 
> Original:
> I am stopping in case you still have something valuable there.
> 
> German git translation:
> Es wird angehalten, falls bereits etwas Nützliches vorhanden ist.
> 
> I wanted to point out that "etwas Nützliches" is more "something useful" that 
> "something valuable". But the more I thought about it, the more it started to 
> confuse me (even the original text) - and now I feel like I don't understand 
> the meaning of the last sentence at all; neither in English nor in the German 
> translation:
> After removing the directory with all rebase-information inside it, WHERE 
> should something valuable still be left over? Is it referring to my working 
> tree?
> 
> So, for completeness, the full English message:
> 
> 	It seems that there is already a rebase-merge directory, and
> 	I wonder if you are in the middle of another rebase.  If that is the
> 	case, please try
>      	   git rebase (--continue | --abort | --skip)
> 	If that is not the case, please
> 	        rm -fr "/work/lg2/src/.git/rebase-merge"
> 	and run me again.  I am stopping in case you still have something
> 	valuable there.
> 
> Sascha
>

Both translations are completely wrong on two accounts: They are a wrong translation of the English original into German (making typical mistakes like "false friends" [wonder != wundern] etc.), and they convey a completely wrong idea about what git is doing and about to do (by translating a message without knowing when and why it is given). Unfortunately, neither comes to me as a surprise.

I'm sorry I'm too frustrated by the German l10n community to try to help again (and the ensuing thread just reinforces that feeling), but to end on a positive note let me just point out:

'in case ...' = 'für den Fall dass ...' (attributiv)
'in the case  ...' = 'im Fall dass ...' (konditional)
Michael

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