patchMyFirstContribution: add avenues for getting help

> With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.
> 
> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
> 
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
> so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
> conventions.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---
>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 32 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  1 file changed, 32 insertions(+)
> 
> diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> index 5e9b808f5f..9fe197c98e 100644
> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,38 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>  
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. You can join by
> +sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git" in the body.
> +The Git list requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and
> +bottom-posting when replying to mail.

> +
>  [[getting-started]]
>  == Getting Started
>  
> -- 
> 2.24.0.432.g9d3f5f5b63-goog
> 

> Hi Emily,
> 
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 01:53:42PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > +
> > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. You can join by
> > +sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with "subscribe git" in the body.
> > +The Git list requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and
> > +bottom-posting when replying to mail.
> 
> Perhaps we could explicitly mention that subscribing to the list is
> optional and not required to post (especially since we CC everyone
> here)? New contributors may be intimidated by the volume of mail going
> through here so knowing that they don't have to subscribe might be
> helpful.

> With https://public-inbox.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.
>
> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
>
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, it's possible that no response is found on either forum,
> so list the main mailing list as a fallback and mention some of the
> conventions.
>
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---

>
> Reworded the Git mailing list blurb per Denton's recommendation.
>
>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 33 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>  1 file changed, 33 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> index 5e9b808f5f..90f45b387a 100644
> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.
> +
>  [[getting-started]]
>  == Getting Started
>
> --
> 2.24.0.432.g9d3f5f5b63-goog
>
>

> --- a/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> +++ b/Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt
> @@ -23,6 +23,39 @@ useful additional context:
>  - `Documentation/SubmittingPatches`
>  - `Documentation/howto/new-command.txt`
>  
> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.
> +
> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see

> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.
> +
> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.
> +

> +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.

> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
> 
> > +[[getting-help]]
> > +=== Getting Help
> > +
> > +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> 
> Is this list meant to be an exhaustive list of authoritative
> sources?

> 
> > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > +
> > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > +"subscribe git" in the body.
> 
> Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
> "you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
> explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.
> 
> You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
> failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
> elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.

>> I am (implicitly) assuming that it is the former, but I think it is
>> better to clarify what this "list of places" is meant to be.
>
> I'll try to fudge the language so that it implies these are official
> channels for getting help.

>> I notice that stack overflow is missing in this list.  Intended?
>> Not that I visit there at all nor I would recommend it, but I recall
>> seeing questions asked by more than a few people after getting bad
>> pieces of advice there.
>
> Hm. SO for getting help contributing to a specific project? ...
> I suppose the kinds of questions I expect to see on StackOverflow
> include "How do I write a mutex lock in C" or "How do I generate patches
> with a cover letter", not "I'm stuck on this Git tutorial" or "Would the
> Git project welcome X change". To me, this doesn't seem like the place
> to bring it up one way or another.

> I envision an exchange sort of like this:
>
> Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
> want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"
>
> Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
> "Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
> system information blah blah blah"
>
> I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
> have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> mailing list.

> On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 12:05:45PM +0900, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > > +==== https://public-inbox.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> > > +
> > > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. If you fail to receive
> > > +help via the channels above, you can ask your question here. The Git list
> > > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > > +"subscribe git" in the body.
> > 
> > Sounds good; I agree with Denton, especially with the mention of
> > "you must join" on the other mailing list, that it is a good idea to
> > explicitly say that subscription is optional in this entry.
> > 
> > You can ask questions even if you haven't tried other avenues and
> > failed, but this entry makes it sound as if an earlier failure
> > elsewhere is a prerequisite for asking for help here.
> 
> I envision an exchange sort of like this:
> 
> Newbie to git@vger.kernel.org: "I'm having trouble compiling Git and I
> want to write a patch, I'm getting X error"
> 
> Veteran to Newbie, cc git-mentoring, bcc git@vger.kernel.org:
> "Please build with blah flag and paste console output, plus let us know
> system information blah blah blah"

> I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans. I
> have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> mailing list.
> 
> Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these three
> venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But suggesting the
> main list as a last resort was intentional.

> On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
>
> > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > mailing list.
> >
> > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
>
> git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> accessible for anyone for writing,

> reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> then try #git-devel.

> Hi Gábor,
> 
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> >
> > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > mailing list.
> > >
> > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> >
> > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > accessible for anyone for writing,
> 
> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

> > reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > then try #git-devel.

> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> > 
> > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
> 
> And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > >
> > > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > > mailing list.
> > > >
> > > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> > >
> > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> >
> > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
>
> And I believe that that "vast majority" will never try to contribute
> to Git, and thus doesn't matter.

> > > reading, and searching.  Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > > then try #git-devel.
>

> Hi Gábor,
> 
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 10:29:43PM +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, SZEDER Gábor wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 01:45:19PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I don't mind the idea of pushing folks to ask on the mentoring list
> > > > > first. It's pretty well attended already - just now I count 16 list
> > > > > members, a pretty significant majority of which are project veterans.
> > > > > I have no problem suggesting newbies ask their questions, which others
> > > > > probably had and solved before them, in a space separate from the main
> > > > > mailing list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course if you want to encourage newbies to ask in any of these
> > > > > three venues, weighted equally, I can change the language. But
> > > > > suggesting the main list as a last resort was intentional.
> > > >
> > > > git@vger is the ultimate source of all wisdom :) and it is openly
> > > > accessible for anyone for writing,
> > >
> > > ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> > > bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> > > (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

> > > > Therefore these three venues cannot be weighted
> > > > equally, but git@vger should be the explicitly preferred venue.  Only if
> > > > the newbie has some other preferences should the other two be
> > > > considered; e.g. if more interactive, chatty communication is preferred,
> > > > then try #git-devel.

> From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org <git-owner@vger.kernel.org> On Behalf
> Of Johannes Schindelin
> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 9:30 PM
> To: SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com>
> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...

>> From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org <git-owner@vger.kernel.org> On Behalf
>> Of Johannes Schindelin
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 9:30 PM
>> To: SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com>
>> ... except people with an @outlook.com address (all of their emails will
>> bounce) and people who do not know how to suppress HTML in their emails
>> (which I believe constitutes the vast majority)...
>
> [RK>] And even those of us who can find the plain/html format
> selection control may find that our employer's system turns
> everything into base64 anyway, thus again making it impossible to
> post to vger.  I fully expect this email to reach all those of you
> who are To or CC, but not to reach vger.

> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger//irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see

> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> contributors who have questions.
> 
> Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
> 
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
> posting conventions.
> 
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---
> Since v2:
> 
> - Removed a double slash in a URL
> - public-inbox -> lore.kernel.org

> 
> > now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> > contributors who have questions.
> > 
> > Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> > questions there too. Mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> > unfamiliar with IRC.
> > 
> > Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> > contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
> > posting conventions.
> > 
> > Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> > ---
> > Since v2:
> > 
> > - Removed a double slash in a URL
> > - public-inbox -> lore.kernel.org
> 
> Ah, I see you mentioned it here and in the contents. Commit messages
> are harder to keep straight, in my experience.
> 
> > +==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]

> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
> 
> > Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
> > questions there too.
> 
> Correct me if I recall wrong, but wasn't #git the original IRC
> channel we developers hang out on, and then somebody thought "the
> traffic is fairly low, so it should be OK" and directed non
> developer trafic there, which caused the developers to migrate out
> to #git-devel, a new channel?

> On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 09:20:20AM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Since #git-devel's traffic is fairly low, it should be OK to direct some
>> > questions there too.
>> 
>> Correct me if I recall wrong, but wasn't #git the original IRC
>> channel we developers hang out on, and then somebody thought "the
>> traffic is fairly low, so it should be OK" and directed non
>> developer trafic there, which caused the developers to migrate out
>> to #git-devel, a new channel?
>
> I certainly don't have the background to correct you, as that was before
> my time, but I can say that this document isn't directing non-developer
> traffic. This is a tutorial for aspiring Git developers to ask questions
> about Git development.

> Mention #git-devel, which is targeted for Git contributors; asking for
> help with getting a first contribution together is on-topic for that
> channel. Also mention some of the conventions in case folks are
> unfamiliar with IRC.
>
> Because the mentoring list and #git-devel are both a subset of Git
> contributors, finally list the main Git list and mention some of the
> posting conventions.

> +[[getting-help]]
> +=== Getting Help
> +
> +If you get stuck, you can seek help in the following places.
> +
> +==== https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/git-mentoring[git-mentoring@googlegroups.com]
> +
> +This mailing list is targeted to new contributors and is a great place to post
> +questions and receive kind, detailed answers from volunteers on the Git
> +project. You must join the group to view messages or post.

> +==== https://webchat.freenode.net/#git-devel[#git-devel] on Freenode
> +
> +This IRC channel is for conversations between Git contributors. If someone is
> +currently online and knows the answer to your question, you can receive help
> +in real time. Otherwise, you can read the
> +https://colabti.org/irclogger/irclogger_logs/git-devel[scrollback] to see
> +whether someone answered you. IRC does not allow offline private messaging, so
> +if you try to private message someone and then log out of IRC, they cannot
> +respond to you. It's better to ask your questions in the channel so that you
> +can be answered if you disconnect and so that others can learn from the
> +conversation.

> +
> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body.

> emilyshaffer@google.com writes:
> 
> > From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> 
> Hmm, unlike folks who use GGG, your From: address seem almost usable
> without having to waste two extra lines (which matters when one has
> to review many patches a day).

> > +==== https://lore.kernel.org/git[git@vger.kernel.org]
> 
> Hmph.  I would have expected mailto:git@vger.kernel.org as the main
> URL here, as this enumeration is not for those who lurk to passibly
> receive information, but for those (new) contributors who want to
> ask help by actively transmitting.  Mentioning lore as an archive
> when talking about the list is necessary, but it shouldn't obscure
> the main e-mail address people need to know in order to send their
> requests.

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 12:35:28PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > emilyshaffer@google.com writes:
> > 
> > > From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> > 
> > Hmm, unlike folks who use GGG, your From: address seem almost usable
> > without having to waste two extra lines (which matters when one has
> > to review many patches a day).
> 
> Blame an unhealthy appreciation for being able to write emails in Vim.
> 
> I generate patches with 'git format-patch' - what's the unusable part of
> "almost" usable here? Typically I invoke it like so:
> 
>   git format-patch -o ~/mailed-patches/blah -vN master..branchname
>   git send-email --to=git@vger.kernel.org ~/mailed-patches/blah/vN*
> 
> If there's more tweaking I should do in the workflow I'd like to know.

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 12:35:28PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>> emilyshaffer@google.com writes:
>> 
>> > From: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
>> 
>> Hmm, unlike folks who use GGG, your From: address seem almost usable
>> without having to waste two extra lines (which matters when one has
>> to review many patches a day).
>
> Blame an unhealthy appreciation for being able to write emails in Vim.
>
> I generate patches with 'git format-patch' - what's the unusable part of
> "almost" usable here?

> +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
> +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> +"subscribe git" in the body. You can also browse the
> +https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] in your browser.

> Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com> writes:
> 
> > +This is the main Git project mailing list where code reviews, version
> > +announcements, design discussions, and more take place. The Git list
> > +requires plain-text-only emails and prefers inline and bottom-posting when
> > +replying to mail; you will be CC'd in all replies to you. Optionally, you can
> > +subscribe to the list by sending an email to majordomo@vger.kernel.org with
> > +"subscribe git" in the body. You can also browse the
> > +https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] in your browser.
> 
> Let's not place a stress on non essential part (i.e. viewable in
> browser) over a more important stuff (i.e. this is where archive is
> available).  How about this as a replacement of the last sentence?
> 
> 	The archive of this mailing list is available at
> 	https://lore.kernel.org/git[archives] to view in a browser.

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:26:02PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
>> With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
>> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
>> contributors who have questions.
>
> Why should a supposedly "open" open source project direct new
> contributors to a mailing list that is not openly accessible, and even
> reading and searching its archives requires registration?

> SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 01:26:02PM -0800, Emily Shaffer wrote:
> >> With https://lore.kernel.org/git/20191114194708.GD60198@google.com/ we
> >> now have a mentoring mailing list, to which we should direct new
> >> contributors who have questions.
> >
> > Why should a supposedly "open" open source project direct new
> > contributors to a mailing list that is not openly accessible, and even
> > reading and searching its archives requires registration?
> 
> Haven't we had that discussion when the mentoring list was launched?
> 
> I would not prefer joining a closed list of unknown people over
> coming up with a fake name and asking for help in an open list if I
> had choice when interacting with an established community as a new
> member, but I would understand it if preference of some people are
> opposite from mine.  The more important part, from my point of view,
> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
> three).

> On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>
>> ...  The more important part, from my point of view,
>> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
>> three).
>
> I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should
> be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good.
> However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to
> carefully consider how to present it to newcomers.
>
> Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the
> foundation of open source.  Therefore, we definitely should not direct
> newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be
> a fallback.

> The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the
> only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that
> newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to
> post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think
> those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them.

> SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> >
> >> ...  The more important part, from my point of view,
> >> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
> >> three).
> >
> > I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should
> > be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good.
> > However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to
> > carefully consider how to present it to newcomers.
> >
> > Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the
> > foundation of open source.  Therefore, we definitely should not direct
> > newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be
> > a fallback.
> 
> I am not that dogmatic ;-) I would be very unhappy and probably
> would not have joined if the main development community was closed,
> but I do not think the "knowledge" the "closed mentoring list for
> those who are shy" are meant to impart to newbies will be something
> that will be so well kept secret that are shared among only those in
> the closed list.  I expect the mentoring list to be repeating what
> those who graduated "new"-ness consider pretty much common public
> knowledge.
> 
> Having said that, my reading did hiccup when queuing Emily's text,
> in that it listed the mentoring list first, and (more problematic)
> the only choice among the three described with a word "great" was
> that one.  Also, now I re-read it, the last sentence "You must join
> the group to view messages or post", without explaining why it is
> set up that way is bound to give a wrong impression, I suppose.  I
> presume that the reason why those who wanted to make the mentoring
> list closed was because they thought it would be nicer for shysters,
> but if that is the case, it probably is better to spell that out.

> 
> > The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the
> > only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that
> > newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to
> > post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think
> > those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them.
> 
> I have no problem with seeing an expanded invitation to the main
> list.  I do not have a strong opinion on the order of three items.

> 
> > The closed mailing list can be mentioned third as a fallback for those
> > who would prefer not to end up on public record right away or who have
> > any technical issues with posting to the main mailing list.
> 
> I'll mark the topic on hold (it is in 'next'), and would give the
> stakeholders some time to settle the discussion, perhaps with
> counter-proposals in an incremental patch form.  Would it be
> reasonable to set the deadline around the end of the next week?

> On Thu, Feb 06, 2020 at 08:33:54AM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > SZEDER Gábor <szeder.dev@gmail.com> writes:
> > 
> > > On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 03:44:40PM -0800, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> > >
> > >> ...  The more important part, from my point of view,
> > >> is that we offer choices (the proposed doc update illustrates
> > >> three).
> > >
> > > I remember a discussion about whether that list and its archive should
> > > be open or closed, and I agree that offering choices is good.
> > > However, since that mentoring list requires registration, we have to
> > > carefully consider how to present it to newcomers.
> > >
> > > Openly accessible knowledge is a fundamental value, and it's the
> > > foundation of open source.  Therefore, we definitely should not direct
> > > newcomers to a closed mailing list as the first option, it can only be
> > > a fallback.
> > 
> > I am not that dogmatic ;-) I would be very unhappy and probably
> > would not have joined if the main development community was closed,
> > but I do not think the "knowledge" the "closed mentoring list for
> > those who are shy" are meant to impart to newbies will be something
> > that will be so well kept secret that are shared among only those in
> > the closed list.  I expect the mentoring list to be repeating what
> > those who graduated "new"-ness consider pretty much common public
> > knowledge.
> > 
> > Having said that, my reading did hiccup when queuing Emily's text,
> > in that it listed the mentoring list first, and (more problematic)
> > the only choice among the three described with a word "great" was
> > that one.  Also, now I re-read it, the last sentence "You must join
> > the group to view messages or post", without explaining why it is
> > set up that way is bound to give a wrong impression, I suppose.  I
> > presume that the reason why those who wanted to make the mentoring
> > list closed was because they thought it would be nicer for shysters,
> > but if that is the case, it probably is better to spell that out.
> 
> Sure. I think I didn't do so in an effort to be brief. I'll think on
> this today and send some suggestions here (rather than rerolling).
> 
> > 
> > > The text should list git@vger as the first option, since that's the
> > > only open mailing list we have, it should clearly emphasize that
> > > newcomers are very welcome, and should explicitly encourage them to
> > > post their questions here, no matter how trivial or silly they think
> > > those questions are, we'll be always glad to answer them.
> > 
> > I have no problem with seeing an expanded invitation to the main
> > list.  I do not have a strong opinion on the order of three items.
> 
> Me neither, and placing git@vger first does give me an opportunity to
> say something like "if you feel worried about asking publicly, this list
> is a more private setting" in reference to the mentors list. So that's
> an option I could get behind.

> Make an effort not to discourage new users from mailing questions to
> git@vger.kernel.org, and explain the purpose of the mentoring list in
> contrast to the main list.
>
> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
> ---
>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 29 +++++++++++++++------------
>  1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)

> Emily Shaffer wrote:
>
>> Make an effort not to discourage new users from mailing questions to
>> git@vger.kernel.org, and explain the purpose of the mentoring list in
>> contrast to the main list.
>>
>> Signed-off-by: Emily Shaffer <emilyshaffer@google.com>
>> ---
>>  Documentation/MyFirstContribution.txt | 29 +++++++++++++++------------
>>  1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 13 deletions(-)
>
> Reviewed-by: Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com>
>
> Thanks for tying up this loose end.