threads / discuss / 11682

Time to flush developer accumulated patches?

Subject: Time to flush developer accumulated patches?

## tl;dr

17 messages between Jan 20, 2008 and Jan 21, 2008.

replies: 16people: 13as markdown or json

Marco Costalba· Jan 20, 2008, 10:10 UTC · lore

Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is out.

Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for this pending stuff?

I understand that you want people focused on fixing bugs, but I also understand that people don't ;-)

Opening a new_stuff branch could have the following benefits:
- Give more time to fix bugs before 1.5.4 is out without stopping
people from having fun and reduce the pressure to release.
- Reduce the merging impact when master reopens because patches are
already merged in new_stuff and developers have already taken care of
conflicts
- Do not slow down the wheel: I can develop some patches and keep them
myself, but until are not discussed in the list and eventually got in
master has little meaning to continue develop additional stuff.
- Perhaps it's lack of reviewing time on your side that worries you
(as is normal because we are on bug fixes mode in master) but upgrade
from new_stuff to master would be not automatic nor guaranteed but at
least people have an idea at what's going on and can keep contributing
in code and ideas.
Comments?
Marco
Wincent Colaiuta· Jan 20, 2008, 10:18 UTC · re: Marco Costalba · lore

Re: Time to flush developer accumulated patches?

El 20/1/2008, a las 11:10, Marco Costalba escribió:
Show 28 quoted lines
> Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear
> about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is
> out.
>
> Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for
> this pending stuff?
>
> I understand that you want people focused on fixing bugs, but I also
> understand that people don't ;-)
>
> Opening a new_stuff branch could have the following benefits:
>
> - Give more time to fix bugs before 1.5.4 is out without stopping
> people from having fun and reduce the pressure to release.
>
> - Reduce the merging impact when master reopens because patches are
> already merged in new_stuff and developers have already taken care of
> conflicts
>
> - Do not slow down the wheel: I can develop some patches and keep them
> myself, but until are not discussed in the list and eventually got in
> master has little meaning to continue develop additional stuff.
>
> - Perhaps it's lack of reviewing time on your side that worries you
> (as is normal because we are on bug fixes mode in master) but upgrade
> from new_stuff to master would be not automatic nor guaranteed but at
> least people have an idea at what's going on and can keep contributing
> in code and ideas.
We already have two such branches: next and pu.

Here's an old version of a mail from Junio describing the different branches; I know he's sent out newer ones but this it he one that I could lay my hands on:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/39954

Cheers, Wincent

Marco Costalba· Jan 20, 2008, 10:24 UTC · re: Wincent Colaiuta · lore

Re: Time to flush developer accumulated patches?

On Jan 20, 2008 11:18 AM, Wincent Colaiuta <win@wincent.com> wrote:
>
> We already have two such branches: next and pu.
>

Yes of course, the name of the branch is not the point here, I purposely choose an unrealistic name 'new_stuff' to underline this, sorry if it was not clear.

Steffen Prohaska· Jan 20, 2008, 10:47 UTC · re: Marco Costalba · lore

Re: Time to flush developer accumulated patches?

On Jan 20, 2008, at 11:10 AM, Marco Costalba wrote:
Show 6 quoted lines
> Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear
> about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is
> out.
>
> Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for
> this pending stuff?
I don't think this is a good idea ...
Show 7 quoted lines
> I understand that you want people focused on fixing bugs, but I also
> understand that people don't ;-)
>
> Opening a new_stuff branch could have the following benefits:
>
> - Give more time to fix bugs before 1.5.4 is out without stopping
> people from having fun and reduce the pressure to release.

... because I believe it is a good thing to keep the pressure to release. The 1.5.4 cycle already became quite long.

Show 7 quoted lines
> - Reduce the merging impact when master reopens because patches are
> already merged in new_stuff and developers have already taken care of
> conflicts
>
> - Do not slow down the wheel: I can develop some patches and keep them
> myself, but until are not discussed in the list and eventually got in
> master has little meaning to continue develop additional stuff.

Isn't this the idea: slow down a bit, focus on fixing bugs instead of developing new stuff, and release 1.5.4.

Show 5 quoted lines
> - Perhaps it's lack of reviewing time on your side that worries you
> (as is normal because we are on bug fixes mode in master) but upgrade
> from new_stuff to master would be not automatic nor guaranteed but at
> least people have an idea at what's going on and can keep contributing
> in code and ideas.
Isn't this the purpose of pu?
	Steffen
Johannes Schindelin· Jan 20, 2008, 13:49 UTC · re: Marco Costalba · lore

Re: Time to flush developer accumulated patches?

Hi,
On Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Marco Costalba wrote:
> Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear 
> about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is 
> out.
Which is good.
> Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for this 
> pending stuff?

No. The purpose of the rc cycle is to _stabilise_ things, which means that people should _focus_ on stabilising things.

If you give them enough to play with, they just get sidetracked, and the stabilisation is left to... Junio. Which is not only hard on our good maintainer, but outright mean.

Ciao, Dscho

Junio C Hamano· Jan 20, 2008, 20:05 UTC · re: Marco Costalba · lore

Re: Time to flush developer accumulated patches?

"Marco Costalba" <mcostalba@gmail.com> writes:
> I understand that you want people focused on fixing bugs, but I also
> understand that people don't ;-)
Current policy during rc stabilization period is roughly:
 - No new feature is accepted, starting early in the rc cycle;
 - An intrusive fix is sent back and requested to be rewritten
   as minimum "fix" without enhancements, starting mid rc cycle;
 - I do not want to take patches early.
The third point is a double-edged sword:
 - Developers can easily get distracted when encouraged to do
   new things.  That's human nature.  Everybody finds doing new
   things more interesting than finding and fixing existing
   bugs.
   This is especially true if the fix is about somebody else's
   code and the breakage does not affect you.  Even your own
   earlier half-baked-hack that has not been discovered by other
   people is often not interesting to fix (once discovered, the
   embarrassment factor tends to make it a higher priority).
   However, we won't have enough good people who know the
   codebase and are capable of fixing existing bugs if they all
   go and work on "other" things.
 - Developers tend to notice _existing_ breakage more easily
   when given a chance to play with _existing_ code (either
   enhancing the existing code, or adding new call sites to the
   existing API).  And one way to encourage playing with
   _existing_ code is to to encourage developing on top of it.

In earlier releases, I used to keep 'next' open during the freeze. I think it had the effect of encouraging new things too much without having enough side-effect (from the point of view of a person who wants to do new things) of uncovering and fixing existing issues (which is the primarily desired effect during the stabilization).

This time I have been deliberately playing differently to strike
the balance a bit differently:
 
 - In order to discourage new things, I do not accept patches
   early.
 - In order not to discourage new things too much, I try to give
   brief feedback, and add them to "What's not in 'master', and
   likely not to be until 1.5.4".

Another practical reason I do not take patches early is because it is a time drain. Taking patches early means it will increase the merge impact _before_ 1.5.4.

Now that high level description out of the way, let's see what you said:

    - Give more time to fix bugs before 1.5.4 is out without stopping
    people from having fun and reduce the pressure to release.
That is precisely what I want to discourage.
    - Reduce the merging impact when master reopens because patches are
    already merged in new_stuff and developers have already taken care of
    conflicts
Bogus.

When two or more new things are outstanding, and if I take patches early, 'next' needs merge resolution. You are arguing to take my time away from what matters to 1.5.4 during the stabilization period, and instead encourage people to have fun and get distracted.

Post 1.5.4 if one series contradicts/conflicts with another, I can just say "I have decided to take that series and your series conflicts with it. Please rebase", to shift the burden to the contributor of the second series. If I do that before 1.5.4, that means I will not just encourage but actively ask the second contributor not to work on uncovering and fixing existing issues but spend time on new things.

Do you think that helps the stabilization period in _any_ way?
    - Do not slow down the wheel: I can develop some patches and keep them
    myself, but until are not discussed in the list and eventually got in
    master has little meaning to continue develop additional stuff.

That's exactly the point of stabilization freeze. You can develop and keep developing. I have a few topics myself that are backburnered, and I occasionally visit them when I am bored. However, I try not to distract others with the series. Please try to do the same.

Quim K Holland· Jan 21, 2008, 11:15 UTC · re: Marco Costalba · lore

Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

"Marco Costalba" <mcostalba@gmail.com> wrote:
 Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear
 about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is
 out.
 Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for
 this pending stuff?
Back when Mr. Torvalds was still leading the development there was not this stupid stability freeze and many useful patches were accepted every day.  For the past few months Mr. Hammano has not been adding much useful code himself, did not join interesting discussions such as Unicode normalization issues, nor gave much useful comments on patches. He has mostly been busy rejecting useful patches and sending not so useful comments.
Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but don't people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?
David Kastrup· Jan 21, 2008, 11:36 UTC · re: Quim K Holland · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

Quim K Holland <qkholland@gmail.com> writes:
Show 20 quoted lines
> "Marco Costalba" <mcostalba@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear
>> about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is
>> out.
>
>>  Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for
>> this pending stuff?
>
> Back when Mr. Torvalds was still leading the development there was not
> this stupid stability freeze and many useful patches were accepted
> every day.  For the past few months Mr. Hammano has not been adding
> much useful code himself, did not join interesting discussions such as
> Unicode normalization issues, nor gave much useful comments on
> patches. He has mostly been busy rejecting useful patches and sending
> not so useful comments.
>
> Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the
> project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but
> don't people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?

As far as I count as "people", I'd say you are plain nuts. And it is not like I remember any useful contribution of yours, anyhow.

In my opinion, JH is doing a splendid job. You don't seem to have watched it too closely, though. You are not even able to spell his name, and you obviously have no clue about the state of affairs anyway. If you think you can do a better job, feel free to do so: since git is developed using distributed version control, everybody can make his own forks and still continue sharing code and patches. We have this situation with the Linux kernel (where we have Linus kernels, Morton kernels, Molnar kernels and so on), all quite amicably.

A similar branching out is not really visible for git itself (apart from the msys-git branch which is slated for eventual reintegration), and that's exactly because Junio's work leaves so very little to be desired.

-- 
David Kastrup
Imran M Yousuf· Jan 21, 2008, 11:47 UTC · re: David Kastrup · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

On Jan 21, 2008 5:36 PM, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
Show 18 quoted lines
> Quim K Holland <qkholland@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > "Marco Costalba" <mcostalba@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>  Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear
> >> about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is
> >> out.
> >
> >>  Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for
> >> this pending stuff?
> >
> > Back when Mr. Torvalds was still leading the development there was not
> > this stupid stability freeze and many useful patches were accepted
> > every day.  For the past few months Mr. Hammano has not been adding
> > much useful code himself, did not join interesting discussions such as
> > Unicode normalization issues, nor gave much useful comments on
> > patches. He has mostly been busy rejecting useful patches and sending
> > not so useful comments.

I can personally give witness to Junio Hamano's discussion and extremely detailed discussion on patches I sent out and it is more elaborate than I would have given in reply. If he has not replied to any of your patch that is because he probably missed it, a resend or a reminder wont harm; we should all understand the workload involved with a successful project as git.

Show 5 quoted lines
> >
> > Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the
> > project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but
> > don't people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?
>

At least get the name right next time. I hope Linus does not read it, because I cant imagine what he would reply :).

Show 11 quoted lines
> As far as I count as "people", I'd say you are plain nuts.  And it is
> not like I remember any useful contribution of yours, anyhow.
>
> In my opinion, JH is doing a splendid job.  You don't seem to have
> watched it too closely, though.  You are not even able to spell his
> name, and you obviously have no clue about the state of affairs anyway.
> If you think you can do a better job, feel free to do so: since git is
> developed using distributed version control, everybody can make his own
> forks and still continue sharing code and patches.  We have this
> situation with the Linux kernel (where we have Linus kernels, Morton
> kernels, Molnar kernels and so on), all quite amicably.

I tend to agree with David, it is very easy and convenient to criticise someone despite his brilliant work. if one feels that a patch will be extremely helpful for one, he/she can easily take and integrate it with his/her own codebase install it and use it, in fact thats what I do as I have two installations of git.

Show 14 quoted lines
>
> A similar branching out is not really visible for git itself (apart from
> the msys-git branch which is slated for eventual reintegration), and
> that's exactly because Junio's work leaves so very little to be desired.
>
> --
> David Kastrup
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>
-- 
Imran M Yousuf
Paolo Ciarrocchi· Jan 21, 2008, 11:38 UTC · re: Quim K Holland · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

On Jan 21, 2008 12:15 PM, Quim K Holland <qkholland@gmail.com> wrote:
Show 12 quoted lines
> "Marco Costalba" <mcostalba@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear
>  about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is
>  out.
>
>  Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for
>  this pending stuff?
>
> Back when Mr. Torvalds was still leading the development there was not this stupid stability freeze and many useful patches were accepted every day.  For the past few months Mr. Hammano has not been adding much useful code himself, did not join interesting discussions such as Unicode normalization issues, nor gave much useful comments on patches. He has mostly been busy rejecting useful patches and sending not so useful comments.
>
> Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but don't people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?
I'm strongly against your proposal, I think Junio is doing a _great_ work.
Ciao,
-- 
Paolo
http://paolo.ciarrocchi.googlepages.com/
Juanma Barranquero· Jan 21, 2008, 11:39 UTC · re: Quim K Holland · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

On Jan 21, 2008 12:15 PM, Quim K Holland <qkholland@gmail.com> wrote:

"stupid stability freeze", "not been adding much useful code himself", "not join interesting discussions", "nor gave much useful comments on patches", "mostly been busy rejecting useful patches and sending not so useful comments"

> I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano

You sure have a funny way to do so. If you do show disrespect someday I hope I'll be around to see it...

             Juanma
Johannes Schindelin· Jan 21, 2008, 12:26 UTC · re: Quim K Holland · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

Hi,
On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Quim K Holland wrote:
Show 11 quoted lines
> Back when Mr. Torvalds was still leading the development there was not 
> this stupid stability freeze and many useful patches were accepted every 
> day.  For the past few months Mr. Hammano has not been adding much 
> useful code himself, did not join interesting discussions such as 
> Unicode normalization issues, nor gave much useful comments on patches. 
> He has mostly been busy rejecting useful patches and sending not so 
> useful comments.
> 
> Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the 
> project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but don't 
> people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?
$ git log --all --author=Quim|wc
      0       0       0
Can I vote you off this list?

I would call you "idiot" if that did not hurt _my_ karma, Dscho

Rogan Dawes· Jan 21, 2008, 13:18 UTC · re: Quim K Holland · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

Quim K Holland wrote:
Show 20 quoted lines
> "Marco Costalba" <mcostalba@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Reading mailing list threads it is becoming common these days to hear
>  about contributors with patches ready to be sent as soon as 1.5.4 is
>  out.
> 
> Would be a good idea to open a new branch new_stuff as a target for 
> this pending stuff?
> 
> Back when Mr. Torvalds was still leading the development there was
> not this stupid stability freeze and many useful patches were
> accepted every day.  For the past few months Mr. Hammano has not been
> adding much useful code himself, did not join interesting discussions
> such as Unicode normalization issues, nor gave much useful comments
> on patches. He has mostly been busy rejecting useful patches and
> sending not so useful comments.
> 
> Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the
> project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but
> don't people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?

That's Mr Hamano (one 'm'), and personally, I think that only when you have contributed to this project yourself, would you have a leg to stand on when you criticise him.

As an observer, I think that Junio is doing a superb job of managing the sometimes quite torrential flow of patches contributed to git. As Linus himself has often said (Paraphrased, of course):

The role of the maintainer is often more to *reject* patches than to accept them, so as to maintain the quality of the code base.

Having said that, the amount of *constructive* criticism that accompanies those rejections is amazing. Often I have seen multiple pages of response to a 2 line patch, so that the contributor (and other observers) can better understand the reason for the rejection, and how to construct a better patch that would be accepted.

Regards,
Rogan
David Tweed· Jan 21, 2008, 14:12 UTC · re: Rogan Dawes · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

One other point no-one has mentioned: even if Junio were to be doing more stabilisation than normal in a project (and I don't think he is), version control software is one of those things like a filesystem where paying attention to stability is really important. Unlike a buggy music player (say), a buggy git could destroy everything up to your last backup.

I appreciate all the work everyone in the community is currently doing on stabilisation.

-- 
cheers, dave tweed__________________________
david.tweed@gmail.com
Rm 124, School of Systems Engineering, University of Reading.
"we had no idea that when we added templates we were adding a Turing-
complete compile-time language." -- C++ standardisation committee
Marco Costalba· Jan 21, 2008, 18:07 UTC · re: Quim K Holland · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

On Jan 21, 2008 12:15 PM, Quim K Holland <qkholland@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Marco Costalba" <mcostalba@gmail.com> wrote:
>
......cut a load of sh...t
> Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but don't people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?
> -

I'm really sorry you used my argumentations and trasform them in a full load of bullshi..t.

If I had only imagined somthing like this I would never posted in first place.

The man you can't even write his name correctly is one of the best maintainers we can have. And we' ve been very lucky for this.

I can number a lot of reasons for this, but you really don't deserve it.

It's not a problem of how many patches you have posted, IMHO everyone could express his ideas regardless of the weight of his contribute to git.

But, also if you had posted thousand patches this don't give you the right to speak like this.

Marco
Jakub Narebski· Jan 21, 2008, 19:13 UTC · re: Quim K Holland · lore

Re: Time to flush Mr. Hammano?

Quim K Holland <qkholland@gmail.com> writes:
Show 11 quoted lines
> Back when Mr. Torvalds was still leading the development there was
> not this stupid stability freeze and many useful patches were
> accepted every day.  For the past few months Mr. Hammano has not
> been adding much useful code himself, did not join interesting
> discussions such as Unicode normalization issues, nor gave much
> useful comments on patches. He has mostly been busy rejecting useful
> patches and sending not so useful comments.
> 
> Can we vote Mr. Hammano out and ask Mr. Torvalds to come back as the
> project leader?  I do not mean any disrespect to Mr. Hammano, but
> don't people think he outlived his usefulness as the project leader?

First, Linus Torvalds passed maintaining git to Junio C Hamano because he wanted to concentrate on Linux kernel; distributed version control tool is just the means to do that. I don't think Linus would want to be back to maintaining git: it is a hard work.

Second, development and development speeds differ from the "creating" pre-1.0 stage (for git when it was being written and then maintained by Linus), and the mature development / improvement stage (for git being maintained by Junio).

Third, git is now in feature freeze before main release, so it is better that Junio concentrates on fixing bugs than on longish discussions or new features.

Last, you don't follow netiquette: you don't know how to cite / quote properly, you didn't word-wrap what you have wrote, you don't contribute neither to discussion nor git code.

Have a nice life... in killfile!
-- 
Jakub Narebski
Poland
ShadeHawk on #git

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