# Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows) 5 messages from 2007-08-29 to 2007-09-02. Participants: Wincent Colaiuta, David Kastrup, Andreas Ericsson, Nix. Thread: https://gitlist.dev/t/9687 ## Wincent Colaiuta, 2007-08-29 09:31 Subject: Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows) Message-ID: <1BA15C6C-1F37-401B-B8D8-4BD147CF5225@wincent.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/1BA15C6C-1F37-401B-B8D8-4BD147CF5225%40wincent.com In-Reply-To: ``` El 29/8/2007, a las 4:23, Johannes Schindelin escribió: > On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Wincent Colaiuta wrote: > >> El 28/8/2007, a las 22:45, Johannes Schindelin escribi?: >> >>> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007, Wincent Colaiuta wrote: >>> >>>> Personally, I don't like HFS+ much at all, but your statement that >>>> Mac OS X "doesn't even have a case sensitive filesystem" is false. >>> >>> It is right that they support it. But since the _default_ is case >>> insensitive (but only as long as it is not _reporting_ file >>> names), it >>> is _as bad_ as "doesn't even have a case sensitive filesystem". No >>> sophistry helps here. >> >> I don't think my correction qualifies as "sophistry" by any >> reasonable >> definition of the word. Andreas claimed that Apple had turned "a >> perfectly decent unix-clone such as FreeBSD into some defect >> monstrosity >> that doesn't even have a case sensitive filesystem"; I merely >> sought to >> correct his misstatement. > > I acknowledged that. > > But it does not change the _meaning_ of Andreas' criticism. They > took a > perfectly sane system, and turned it into a mess. I don't think it's productive to enter into arguments about whether a particular operating system is a "monstrosity", "sane" or "a mess"; that's why I limited my comment to a correction of a factual misstatement by Andreas and left the opinion part unchallenged. We could have avoided this thread if instead of "doesn't even have a case sensitive filesystem", he'd started his flame with "defaults to a using a case-insensitive filesystem". > Yes, you _can_ change the setting. No, most don't. Yes, the > effect is... > you guessed it: the same as if they did not allow case sensitivity > at all. While I agree that most just accept the default, your argument here and in your previous email is spurious; it amounts to saying "A and B is offered, but because A is the default it is the same as if B were not supported at all", which isn't valid logic. If you limited your argument to criticizing case-insensitive filesystems then I would have to agree with you; I am not a fan of them. Likewise, if you said that the default has undesirable consequences I would also concur. It's your attempt to extend your claim to an argument for equivalence that I can't buy. > Plenty of people have this setup Agreed... > and we have to suffer. but, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much "suffering" has this really caused you? I gather that you're not even a user of that operating system; I am (have been since the first developer previews), have always accepted the default filesystem choice, don't even like the filesystem (have ranted repeatedly about its flakiness on my weblog), but I think I've run into case- insensitivity issues two times. If you want to talk about "suffering" then ask me about HFS+ data integrity. Cheers, Wincent ``` ## David Kastrup, 2007-08-29 09:43 Subject: Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows) Message-ID: <864piillqs.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/864piillqs.fsf%40lola.quinscape.zz In-Reply-To: <1BA15C6C-1F37-401B-B8D8-4BD147CF5225@wincent.com> ``` Wincent Colaiuta writes: > El 29/8/2007, a las 4:23, Johannes Schindelin escribió: > >> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Wincent Colaiuta wrote: >> >> But it does not change the _meaning_ of Andreas' criticism. They >> took a perfectly sane system, and turned it into a mess. > > While I agree that most just accept the default, your argument here > and in your previous email is spurious; it amounts to saying "A and > B is offered, but because A is the default it is the same as if B > were not supported at all", which isn't valid logic. If you limited > your argument to criticizing case-insensitive filesystems then I > would have to agree with you; I am not a fan of them. Likewise, if > you said that the default has undesirable consequences I would also > concur. It's your attempt to extend your claim to an argument for > equivalence that I can't buy. Read up on his posting history. >> Plenty of people have this setup > > Agreed... > >> and we have to suffer. > > but, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much > "suffering" has this really caused you? I gather that you're not > even a user of that operating system; He is the main worker on the MSYS port of git as far as I can tell, while not using Windows as his work platform. So indeed he gets to bear _all_ the pain, and no personal gain. Since I have provided for Windows/MSYS compatibility in AUCTeX's _installation_ procedure (a small part of the project which is mostly operating system agnostic), a much smaller stuff under similar circumstances, I can vouch for the amount of hassle such a seemingly "everything we need should be there in principle" Windows accommodation task causes. And I actually find it extremely distasteful how little involvement in this project is there from genuine Windows users: most restrict themselves to complaining. So at least on this account, I think you are not doing him justice. > I am (have been since the first developer previews), have always > accepted the default filesystem choice, don't even like the > filesystem (have ranted repeatedly about its flakiness on my > weblog), but I think I've run into case- insensitivity issues two > times. If you want to talk about "suffering" then ask me about HFS+ > data integrity. -- David Kastrup ``` ## Andreas Ericsson, 2007-08-29 10:00 Subject: Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows) Message-ID: <46D543A9.3050105@op5.se> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/46D543A9.3050105%40op5.se In-Reply-To: <1BA15C6C-1F37-401B-B8D8-4BD147CF5225@wincent.com> ``` Wincent Colaiuta wrote: > El 29/8/2007, a las 4:23, Johannes Schindelin escribió: > >> >> I acknowledged that. >> >> But it does not change the _meaning_ of Andreas' criticism. They took a >> perfectly sane system, and turned it into a mess. > > I don't think it's productive to enter into arguments about whether a > particular operating system is a "monstrosity", "sane" or "a mess"; > that's why I limited my comment to a correction of a factual > misstatement by Andreas and left the opinion part unchallenged. We could > have avoided this thread if instead of "doesn't even have a case > sensitive filesystem", he'd started his flame with "defaults to a using > a case-insensitive filesystem". > >> Yes, you _can_ change the setting. No, most don't. Yes, the effect >> is... >> you guessed it: the same as if they did not allow case sensitivity at >> all. > > While I agree that most just accept the default, your argument here and > in your previous email is spurious; it amounts to saying "A and B is > offered, but because A is the default it is the same as if B were not > supported at all", which isn't valid logic. If you limited your argument > to criticizing case-insensitive filesystems then I would have to agree > with you; I am not a fan of them. Likewise, if you said that the default > has undesirable consequences I would also concur. It's your attempt to > extend your claim to an argument for equivalence that I can't buy. > My original comment was in error. I was unaware that Apple shipped different filesystems and that there was actually a choice. Me having sat by a friend who did his installation didn't realize I had the option of using a case-sensitive filesystem, so I assumed it wasn't there, which only goes to show that assumption indeed is the mother of all fuckups. Not wanting a pointless discussion in which everyone agrees in spirit but nitpicks about factual details, I didn't respond to any of the posts. Since it seems we all agree that case-insensitive, case-reporting file- systems are disgusting and it's now thoroughly proven that Apple does indeed ship a proper filesystem with its OS X releases, can we please drop this now and move on to trying to improve things? I'll take universal silence on the subject as "good idea, let's do that" > >> and we have to suffer. > > but, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much > "suffering" has this really caused you? Plenty enough, I should imagine. As David Kastrup mentioned, Dscho does extensive work on MSYS/MingW while not using it himself. Besides that, there are all these timeconsuming threads that some ignorant dumbass (in this case me) turn into silly pie-fights with some uninformed remark that is overly tainted by personal opinion. My apologies. I shall do my research better in the future. -- Andreas Ericsson andreas.ericsson@op5.se OP5 AB www.op5.se Tel: +46 8-230225 Fax: +46 8-230231 ``` ## Wincent Colaiuta, 2007-08-29 10:04 Subject: Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows) Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/CE133B5E-C2A2-4CC3-8F49-7D7744593EDB%40wincent.com In-Reply-To: <864piillqs.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz> ``` El 29/8/2007, a las 11:43, David Kastrup escribió: >>> Plenty of people have this setup >> >> Agreed... >> >>> and we have to suffer. >> >> but, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much >> "suffering" has this really caused you? I gather that you're not >> even a user of that operating system; > > He is the main worker on the MSYS port of git as far as I can tell, > while not using Windows as his work platform. So indeed he gets to > bear _all_ the pain, and no personal gain. If you look at the thread, his comments in this instance were about Mac OS X, not Windows. As for Dscho's Window's-related pain, I do sympathize. Cheers, Wincent ``` ## Nix, 2007-09-02 00:20 Subject: Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows) Message-ID: <87bqcluddn.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/87bqcluddn.fsf%40hades.wkstn.nix In-Reply-To: ``` On 29 Aug 2007, Linus Torvalds verbalised: > And if you use that algorithm, them 'ß' and 'ss' are equal in a > case-insensitive filesystem. > > Does anybody do that? I don't know. But I sure as hell wouldn't be > surprised. Oh yes, they do. Guess what I spent the last month fixing in a huge heap of proprietary software. Of course the problem is not truly fixable because of the potentially unbounded set of context-dependent stuff such as `Masse'. (I hear some people got a summer holiday...) ```