# 14 messages from 2017-06-22 to 2017-06-23. Participants: Jessie Hernandez, Simon Ruderich, Patrick Lehmann, Junio C Hamano, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, Jeff King, demerphq. Thread: https://gitlist.dev/t/46228 ## Jessie Hernandez, 2017-06-22 09:50 Subject: Message-ID: <7c277ac1cfb40b9b362d468a94dfb4fe.squirrel@mail.jessiehernandez.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/7c277ac1cfb40b9b362d468a94dfb4fe.squirrel%40mail.jessiehernandez.com ``` subscribe git ``` ## Simon Ruderich, 2017-06-22 12:48 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20170622124803.45sduodpfbwuuq52@ruderich.org> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20170622124803.45sduodpfbwuuq52%40ruderich.org In-Reply-To: <7c277ac1cfb40b9b362d468a94dfb4fe.squirrel@mail.jessiehernandez.com> ``` On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:50:01AM +0200, Jessie Hernandez wrote: > subscribe git You need to write to majordomo@vger.kernel.org (with subscribe git in the body) to subscribe. Regards Simon -- + privacy is necessary + using gnupg http://gnupg.org + public key id: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9 ``` ## Patrick Lehmann, 2017-06-22 13:35 Subject: AW: your mail Message-ID: <0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A3D5@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A3D5%40SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de In-Reply-To: <20170622124803.45sduodpfbwuuq52@ruderich.org> ``` But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription? Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed? ________________________________________ Von: git-owner@vger.kernel.org [git-owner@vger.kernel.org]" im Auftrag von "Simon Ruderich [simon@ruderich.org] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2017 14:48 Bis: Jessie Hernandez Cc: git@vger.kernel.org Betreff: Re: your mail On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:50:01AM +0200, Jessie Hernandez wrote: > subscribe git You need to write to majordomo@vger.kernel.org (with subscribe git in the body) to subscribe. Regards Simon -- + privacy is necessary + using gnupg http://gnupg.org + public key id: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9 ``` ## Simon Ruderich, 2017-06-22 13:47 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20170622134708.fcc4zxakga6p255x@ruderich.org> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20170622134708.fcc4zxakga6p255x%40ruderich.org In-Reply-To: <0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A3D5@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de> ``` On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:35:33PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote: > But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription? > Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed? Everybody can send to this mailing list. This is by design so contributors/bug reporters can send mails without having to subscribe. Regards Simon -- + Privatsphäre ist notwendig + Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org + Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9 ``` ## Patrick Lehmann, 2017-06-22 13:55 Subject: AW: your mail Message-ID: <0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A423@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A423%40SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de In-Reply-To: <20170622134708.fcc4zxakga6p255x@ruderich.org> ``` The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy. a) It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list. b) It describes how to subscribe. With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman), subscription is required for participation. ________________________________________ Von: Simon Ruderich [simon@ruderich.org] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2017 15:47 Bis: Patrick Lehmann Cc: Jessie Hernandez; git@vger.kernel.org Betreff: Re: your mail On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:35:33PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote: > But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription? > Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed? Everybody can send to this mailing list. This is by design so contributors/bug reporters can send mails without having to subscribe. Regards Simon -- + Privatsphäre ist notwendig + Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org + Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9 ``` ## Simon Ruderich, 2017-06-22 20:46 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20170622204628.eintlap4uchlncub@ruderich.org> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20170622204628.eintlap4uchlncub%40ruderich.org In-Reply-To: <0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A423@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de> ``` On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote: > The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy. > > a) > It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list. > b) > It describes how to subscribe. However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only how to subscribe. > With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman), > subscription is required for participation. That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to prevent spams but not all do. Somebody might want to update the documentation, but personally I see no reason to change anything. If you want to send a patch to improve it, that would be great of course. Regards Simon PS: Please don't top-post on this mailing list. -- + Privatsphäre ist notwendig + Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org + Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9 ``` ## Junio C Hamano, 2017-06-22 21:35 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/xmqq8tkjiu3d.fsf%40gitster.mtv.corp.google.com In-Reply-To: <20170622204628.eintlap4uchlncub@ruderich.org> ``` Simon Ruderich writes: > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote: >> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy. >> >> a) >> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list. >> b) >> It describes how to subscribe. > > However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only > how to subscribe. For that matter, we also say "everyone is welcome to post", which makes it clear that no subscription is required. But I view these merely being technically correct. And making it absolutely obvious does not cost too much. >> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman), >> subscription is required for participation. > > That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to > prevent spams but not all do. Yes. But not many people realize that the world they know is the only world. We are used to an open list and are shocked when we encouter a closed one; let's not forget that shock. How about doing it like this? README.md | 4 ++++ 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+) diff --git a/README.md b/README.md index f17af66a97..bbaf54bffb 100644 --- a/README.md +++ b/README.md @@ -31,6 +31,10 @@ The user discussion and development of Git take place on the Git mailing list -- everyone is welcome to post bug reports, feature requests, comments and patches to git@vger.kernel.org (read [Documentation/SubmittingPatches][] for instructions on patch submission). + +You can send messages without subscribing to the list, but it is +recommended to read what other people are saying on the list before +you speak. To subscribe to the list, send an email with just "subscribe git" in the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are available at , ``` ## Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason, 2017-06-22 21:58 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/878tkjk7m7.fsf%40gmail.com In-Reply-To: ``` On Thu, Jun 22 2017, Junio C. Hamano jotted: > Simon Ruderich writes: > >> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote: >>> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy. >>> >>> a) >>> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list. >>> b) >>> It describes how to subscribe. >> >> However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only >> how to subscribe. > > For that matter, we also say "everyone is welcome to post", which > makes it clear that no subscription is required. > > But I view these merely being technically correct. And making it > absolutely obvious does not cost too much. > >>> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman), >>> subscription is required for participation. >> >> That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to >> prevent spams but not all do. > > Yes. But not many people realize that the world they know is the > only world. We are used to an open list and are shocked when we > encouter a closed one; let's not forget that shock. > > How about doing it like this? > > README.md | 4 ++++ > 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+) > > diff --git a/README.md b/README.md > index f17af66a97..bbaf54bffb 100644 > --- a/README.md > +++ b/README.md > @@ -31,6 +31,10 @@ The user discussion and development of Git take place on the Git > mailing list -- everyone is welcome to post bug reports, feature > requests, comments and patches to git@vger.kernel.org (read > [Documentation/SubmittingPatches][] for instructions on patch submission). > + > +You can send messages without subscribing to the list, but it is > +recommended to read what other people are saying on the list before > +you speak. > To subscribe to the list, send an email with just "subscribe git" in > the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are > available at , It's unclear what that means. I *think* it means "consider taking a look around the list before you post", but then it's probably better advice to tell people to skim the archives first to get an idea of the traffic. E.g. if I page through the first 2 pages of public-inbox.org I get messages going back to the 19th, but if I were to subscribe to the list I'd need to wait 4 days to get the same mail. Which, in the context of what this follows (how to submit a bug, questions etc.) isn't a good use of time for the person reading the instructions. Maybe something more like: diff --git a/README.md b/README.md index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644 --- a/README.md +++ b/README.md @@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are available at , and other archival sites. +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch. + The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that list the current status of various development topics to the mailing list. The discussion following them give a good reference for ``` ## Junio C Hamano, 2017-06-22 22:14 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/xmqqr2ybhdpa.fsf%40gitster.mtv.corp.google.com In-Reply-To: <878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com> ``` Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason writes: > Maybe something more like: Much better. > diff --git a/README.md b/README.md > index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644 > --- a/README.md > +++ b/README.md > @@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are > available at , > and other archival sites. > > +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and > +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some > +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be > +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in > +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch. > + > The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that > list the current status of various development topics to the mailing > list. The discussion following them give a good reference for ``` ## Jeff King, 2017-06-22 23:21 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20170622232156.vptuoafdtglokujw@sigill.intra.peff.net> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20170622232156.vptuoafdtglokujw%40sigill.intra.peff.net In-Reply-To: <878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com> ``` On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:58:08PM +0200, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > Which, in the context of what this follows (how to submit a bug, > questions etc.) isn't a good use of time for the person reading the > instructions. > > Maybe something more like: > > diff --git a/README.md b/README.md > index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644 > --- a/README.md > +++ b/README.md > @@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are > available at , > and other archival sites. > > +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and > +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some > +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be > +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in > +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch. > + > The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that > list the current status of various development topics to the mailing > list. The discussion following them give a good reference for You perhaps already read it, but you may want to steal wording or suggestions from the mailing list section at: https://git-scm.com/community which is covering the same ideas (and vice versa, patches to that page are welcome if the README says something better). -Peff ``` ## Junio C Hamano, 2017-06-23 05:23 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/xmqqshirffay.fsf%40gitster.mtv.corp.google.com In-Reply-To: <20170622232156.vptuoafdtglokujw@sigill.intra.peff.net> ``` Jeff King writes: >> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and >> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some >> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be >> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in >> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch. >> + >> The maintainer frequently sends the "What's cooking" reports that >> list the current status of various development topics to the mailing >> list. The discussion following them give a good reference for > > You perhaps already read it, but you may want to steal wording or > suggestions from the mailing list section at: > > https://git-scm.com/community > > which is covering the same ideas (and vice versa, patches to that page > are welcome if the README says something better). OK, so... Ævar's version does not mention: - text/plain, which is a very good addition. - note about CC in a way as useful as the "community" page does, which may want to steal from the latter. - the archive, but it may not be needed in the context of this document. "Read the archive to make sure you are not repeating somebody else said before speaking" is something we silently wish everybody to follow, but it is something we do not want to say out loud, especially to new people. - Windows, but I am not sure if it is necessary or even healthy. One thing I would rather not to see is the Windows mailing list becomes the first line triage place for any and all issues that were experienced by a user who happened to be using Windows, and majority of the issues turn out to be unspecific to Windows. I'd suspect that all of us rather would want to see the referral go the other way around. Otoh, "community" page does not encourage subscription as a way to ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to add. A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the "community" page: The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to subscribe. Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related. Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer explanation taken from Ævar's version: ... disable HTML in your outgoing messages. By subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not missing follow-up discussion and also learn from other development in the community. The list archive can be found on public-inbox. ``` ## demerphq, 2017-06-23 06:58 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/CANgJU%2BUm-2CLDYYsS%3DacJ5udc8M2Wr9KSL3PuGAYpda0WaMmxw%40mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: <878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com> ``` On 22 June 2017 at 23:58, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote: > +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and > +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some > +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be FWIW: "adviced" is misspelled, it should be "advised", and IMO, it feels like poor style to begin a sentence with a contraction. Not strictly wrong, but sufficiently informal that I think it is out of place in docs like this. Better to just say "It is", or even just "You are", especially as you use "you" later in the sentence. I actually think simplifying that sentence considerably is preferable: "To be sure you receive all follow-up mails you should subscribe to the list." flows better and is more succinct than "It's advised to subscribe to the list if you want to be sure you're not missing follow-up discussion". > +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in > +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch. cheers, yves -- perl -Mre=debug -e "/just|another|perl|hacker/" ``` ## Jeff King, 2017-06-23 16:53 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <20170623165347.s6byszwdps34ntzv@sigill.intra.peff.net> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20170623165347.s6byszwdps34ntzv%40sigill.intra.peff.net In-Reply-To: ``` On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:23:17PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote: > Otoh, "community" page does not encourage subscription as a way to > ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to > add. > > A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the "community" > page: > > The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to > subscribe. > > Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for > public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related. > > Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer > explanation taken from Ævar's version: > > ... disable HTML in your outgoing messages. > > By subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not > missing follow-up discussion and also learn from other > development in the community. The list archive can be found > on public-inbox. Yeah, I think that's a good suggestion. Do you want to phrase it in the form of a patch? :) -Peff ``` ## Junio C Hamano, 2017-06-23 18:44 Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/xmqqvanmee7j.fsf%40gitster.mtv.corp.google.com In-Reply-To: <20170623165347.s6byszwdps34ntzv@sigill.intra.peff.net> ``` Jeff King writes: > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:23:17PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote: > >> Otoh, "community" page does not encourage subscription as a way to >> ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to >> add. >> >> A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the "community" >> page: >> >> The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to >> subscribe. >> >> Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for >> public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related. >> >> Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer >> explanation taken from Ævar's version: >> >> ... disable HTML in your outgoing messages. >> >> By subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not >> missing follow-up discussion and also learn from other >> development in the community. The list archive can be found >> on public-inbox. > > Yeah, I think that's a good suggestion. Do you want to phrase it in the > form of a patch? :) OK. Letme try. ```