threads / discuss / 43440

Re: multi-project repos (was Re: Cleaning up git user-interface

Subject: Re: multi-project repos (was Re: Cleaning up git user-interface

## tl;dr

3 messages between Nov 17, 2006 and Nov 17, 2006.

replies: 2people: 3as markdown or json

linux@horizon.com· Nov 17, 2006, 05:11 UTC · lore
>> A lot of the complaints seem to not be about the interfaces, but about 
>> people not _understanding_ and knowing what the interfaces do. If you were 
Show 6 quoted lines
> From the point of view of a user, there is not really a difference
> between the two.  As a user, you form a mental model of how things
> work by looking at the interface.  If the interface is bad, the user
> creates a faulty model in his head, and starts doing things that
> are perfectly logical in the faulty model, but stupid and silly when
> you consider the actual internals.
"The only intuitive user interface is the nipple; all else is learned."

As Linus is explaining, the fundamental *problem* is the mental model. Once you know how to break your goals apart into the right kind of pieces, little things like terminology are truly little.

I'm not sure that git is sufficiently like anything else that a few well-chosen command names can bring a good analogy to mind. There just isn't a simple analogy that won't lead you astray; you have to understand the thing on its own terms.

How do you explain the point of an electric screwdriver to someone who's never seen a screw? He'll think it's a silly way to wind up yarn.

I'll be the first to explain that the git docs have some major problems. "git show" is a really useful command. It has a zillion options to do cool things. Have you read the man page?

Didn't take long, did it? "git log" is even more powerful, and almost as bad. The information is all available, it's just on the plumbing man pages.

And I even understand *why* it's there. Because writing the plumbing is when the coders were thinking about the problem. And writing good docs is very simple: when you learn something, write it down. Not later, or next week, but right now, when you still remember how confused you were before and what led you to the revelation.

The only problem, for a person looking at it top-down, is that git was written bottom-up, so the bottom is very well documented, and once you understand that, the top is pretty obvious and trivial.

But if you want to improve the situation for someone like yourself, the solution is the same: when you learn something non-trivial, write it down. Not later, after you've finished learning, but right now when you still remember the process of learning.

Now, when you show people what you wrote, one of two things will
happen:
1) They'll say "thank you, that's a good way of looking at it", or
2) They'll say, "that's not quite right; the truth is actually...".
   The second case means that you have a bit more to learn.
   But by taking the first step, you've given the learning process
   some momentum.  It gets easier after that.

I hope my recent postings ([DRAFT] Branching and merging with git) form a reasonable example of that.

There are a few key concepts in the git tools. I don't care if "git-rev-list" is an ugly name; the name isn't learly as important as realizing that *every* command that works on a list of commits uses the same primitive, and what you learn about one command in that family

Sean· Nov 17, 2006, 05:42 UTC · re: linux@horizon.com · lore

On 17 Nov 2006 00:11:57 -0500 linux@horizon.com wrote:

> "The only intuitive user interface is the nipple; all else is learned."

The thing is that other SCM's like hg look a lot more like a nipple than Git. And they have the same conceptual models, more or less, to deal with as Git.

So why is it so many people think Git has a UI problem where the same complaint isn't levelled at Mercurial? The thing is, the focus of Git has been different, it's been about creating great plumbing. It's had great success at doing that, and anyone who warms up to Git is well rewarded with a tool that gives them a lot of power and flexibility.

But Junio and others that have done most of the work have gone so far as to say Git is basically now feature complete.. the plumbing is more or less done.

So now it's time to make that plumbing more accessible and less intimidating to the uninitiated. And blaming them for having the wrong mental model is just fundamentally the wrong approach. No amount of documentation is going to replace having tools that are the least surprising they can be and Just Work more often than not. Other modern SCM's have managed to do a better job of this than Git, and there's no reason Git can't do better than it has.

As long as no damage is done to the underlying architecture and principles of Git there really shouldn't be _any harm_ in trying to do a better job of the porcelain layer.

Johannes Schindelin· Nov 17, 2006, 10:02 UTC · re: linux@horizon.com · lore
Hi,
On Fri, 17 Nov 2006, linux@horizon.com wrote:
> How do you explain the point of an electric screwdriver to someone who's 
> never seen a screw?  He'll think it's a silly way to wind up yarn.

I show him how to use it. And that's actually a fine analogy: While the principle of a screw is quite clever, working with it -- even with an electric screwdriver -- is easy. And the most important part: I never read instructions on how to use it. I saw somebody use it and -- voila! -- I can use it myself.

> I'll be the first to explain that the git docs have some major problems. 
> "git show" is a really useful command.  It has a zillion options to do 
> cool things.  Have you read the man page?

I think that the importance of documentation is overrated. Users have come to expect to use programs without reading a manual. DWIM comes to mind.

Ciao,

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