# What about SHA-1 collisions? 5 messages from 2012-11-06 to 2012-11-07. Participants: Josef Wolf, John McKown, Shawn Pearce, Andrew Ardill. Thread: https://gitlist.dev/t/32031 ## Josef Wolf, 2012-11-06 20:26 Subject: What about SHA-1 collisions? Message-ID: <20121106202643.GF28437@raven.wolf.lan> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20121106202643.GF28437%40raven.wolf.lan ``` Hello, we all know, the probability for SHA-1 collisions is very, very low, almost non-existant. But we also know that they are not impossible. Just for curiosity: what would happen if such a collision would occur within one repository? ``` ## John McKown, 2012-11-06 21:41 Subject: Re: What about SHA-1 collisions? Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/loom.20121106T223000-502%40post.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <20121106202643.GF28437@raven.wolf.lan> ``` Josef Wolf raven.inka.de> writes: > > Hello, > > we all know, the probability for SHA-1 collisions is very, very low, almost > non-existant. But we also know that they are not impossible. > > Just for curiosity: what would happen if such a collision would occur within > one repository? > In a sense, this cannot happen. Suppose you have a new working directory. You do a "git init" to initialize it for use by git. You then copy in a bunch of data from elsewhere. By chance, files "a" and "b" have different content, but the same sha1 (they collide). The "git add ." command is basically a short cut for doing something like: for i in *;do git add $i;done That is, it seems to add each file, one at a time in some order. Suppose it creates the sha1 for "a" first. It then creates the appropriate "stuff" for file "a" in the .git subdirectory, based on the sha1 value. Now, it gets around to processing "b". It gets the sha1 value of b and finds that it already has an entry for that value. At that point, the "git add" thinks "Oh, I've already processed this file. No need to do anything!" So the contents of file "b" are not saved anywhere in git and, bottom line, that version of "b" will not be in the git repository. Ever. Because "a" already has that SHA1 "tied up" and it is (theoretically) never released. I think of the SHA1 value being a unique key into a "write once" database. Once you've added some content (a file) into the database, then the SHA1 value of that content (file) is unmodifiable. Attempts to write another record into the database is rejected (in a read DB, you'd get some sort of DUPLICATE KEY response). Git considers the "duplicate key" to be just fine because it ASSUMES that the SHA1 is unique to the first file (content) which generates it. Hope I made sense. John ``` ## Josef Wolf, 2012-11-06 22:09 Subject: Re: What about SHA-1 collisions? Message-ID: <20121106220938.GH28437@raven.wolf.lan> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20121106220938.GH28437%40raven.wolf.lan In-Reply-To: ``` On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 09:41:29PM +0000, John McKown wrote: > Josef Wolf raven.inka.de> writes: > > Just for curiosity: what would happen if such a collision would occur within > > one repository? > In a sense, this cannot happen. In the scenario you described, contents of this version of file "b" are lost and replaced by the contents of file "a". So file "b" is broken. What happens when files "a" and "b" are added into different repositories? File "a" is added to repos "A", and file "b" is added to repos "B". Now it depends from which repository you fetch the collided blob first. If you fetch it from "A", file "b" will be broken. If you fetch first from "B", your "a" will be broken. It becomes even more interesting, if some commit or tree object would have the same SHA1 as some other object. I guess, in such a case the repository would be completely hosed? ``` ## Shawn Pearce, 2012-11-07 15:42 Subject: Re: What about SHA-1 collisions? Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/CAJo%3DhJtF2%2BZ1BDQnysB7hk2MM336iEUMHd3zSLCm14yvw1_-wg%40mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20121106220938.GH28437@raven.wolf.lan> ``` On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Josef Wolf wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 06, 2012 at 09:41:29PM +0000, John McKown wrote: > > Josef Wolf raven.inka.de> writes: > > > Just for curiosity: what would happen if such a collision would occur within > > > one repository? > > > In a sense, this cannot happen. > > In the scenario you described, contents of this version of file "b" are lost > and replaced by the contents of file "a". So file "b" is broken. > > What happens when files "a" and "b" are added into different repositories? > File "a" is added to repos "A", and file "b" is added to repos "B". Now it > depends from which repository you fetch the collided blob first. If you fetch > it from "A", file "b" will be broken. If you fetch first from "B", your "a" > will be broken. > > It becomes even more interesting, if some commit or tree object would have > the same SHA1 as some other object. I guess, in such a case the repository > would be completely hosed? When exchanging objects over the network, Git compares byte-for-byte any object that one side sent that the other side already has, and complains loudly when there is a collision detected. This only works if the sender includes the "wrong" content for the named object. Git also does assume the SHA-1 is unique and that it is not always necessary to transmit the object. In these cases you would not be able to detect the collision, because there isn't one. Your repository would simply be using the wrong content for a file. Presumably one would notice your build doesn't work anymore and investigate why. ``` ## Andrew Ardill, 2012-11-07 23:44 Subject: Re: What about SHA-1 collisions? Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/CAH5451mwShC3QmX-5NxUO-00gx6uxNVKUHw4zrb%3DpyduHBJXLQ%40mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: ``` A recent article [1] did an analysis on the number of items needed from a given range to have a 50% chance of a collision. The famous birthday paradox scenario was used, where you only need 23 people before the chance of two of them having the same birthday is over 50%. In this scenario there are ~366 options available to be picked from, and 23 is significantly small in comparison. The mathematics behind these statistics was extended to account for any sized range (call it N) and it turns out that the number of items (k) that can be picked before you have exceeded a given percentage chance (T) of _not_ having a collision is roughly k ~= sqrt(-2N.ln(T)) As pedrocr pointed out on Hacker News [2] "Applying the formula for 160bit SHA-1 you need 1.7e23 objects to get a 1% chance of collision. The current Linus kernel repository has 2.7 million objects. So to get a collision you'd need a repository that's 6e16 times larger. That should be plenty. For some wacky perspective that's 10 million kernel sized contributions for every man woman and child on earth together in a single repository. It would seem git will reach plenty of other bottlenecks before SHA-1 becomes a problem..." An interesting analysis, even given that the OP presumes a collision in their question. Regards, Andrew Ardill [1] http://www.solipsys.co.uk/new/TheBirthdayParadox.html [2] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4753198 ```