threads / discuss / 20498

Hash algorithm choice

Subject: Hash algorithm choice

## tl;dr

8 messages between Aug 9, 2009 and Aug 9, 2009.

replies: 7people: 6as markdown or json

Jerome Baum· Aug 9, 2009, 16:17 UTC · lore
Hi all,

I just had an idea regarding git and hashing. Couldn't find any previous discussion on the subject so here's what I'm thinking of:

How difficult would it be to allow users to choose a hash function during git-init which is then globally used in the repo? Are there many changes needed or are changes in git-hash-object and git-init sufficient?

I'm not trying to undermine the decision to use SHA-1 or anything, but I would guess it builds for the future and adds flexibility to the system. So when SHA-1 is no longer sufficient, it would be easy to switch to RIPEMD-160 with a simple "git-init --hash=ripemd160"

Would be happy for any comments on this.
Regards,
Jerome Baum
Hugo-Junkers-Str. 2
D-37083 Göttingen
Germany
Tel.: +49 551 2008782
Web: www.JeromeBaum.com
Linus Torvalds· Aug 9, 2009, 17:46 UTC · re: Jerome Baum · lore

Re: Hash algorithm choice

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, Jerome Baum wrote:
Show 5 quoted lines
> 
> How difficult would it be to allow users to choose a hash function
> during git-init which is then globally used in the repo? Are there
> many changes needed or are changes in git-hash-object and git-init
> sufficient?

If youlimit the hash size to 20 bytes, there are almost no changes necessary.

You'd need to hijack the 'SHA1_Init/SHA1_Update/SHA1_Final' functions, of course, and you'd likely want to rename them (and eventually a lot of other functions too), but that renaming is mechanical and isn't even needed for proper working.

Now, if you would ever want to extend the _size_ of the hash, that's a much much bigger problem, but if you're ok with just changing the hash and then truncating the result to 20 bytes (ie kind of like sha-512-160), or you're ok with limiting yourself to 20-byte hashes like REIPMD-160, the size of the changes should be minimal.

			Linus
Junio C Hamano· Aug 9, 2009, 18:03 UTC · re: Linus Torvalds · lore

Re: Hash algorithm choice

Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org> writes:
Show 13 quoted lines
> If youlimit the hash size to 20 bytes, there are almost no changes 
> necessary.
>
> You'd need to hijack the 'SHA1_Init/SHA1_Update/SHA1_Final' functions, of 
> course, and you'd likely want to rename them (and eventually a lot of 
> other functions too), but that renaming is mechanical and isn't even 
> needed for proper working.
>
> Now, if you would ever want to extend the _size_ of the hash, that's a 
> much much bigger problem, but if you're ok with just changing the hash and 
> then truncating the result to 20 bytes (ie kind of like sha-512-160), or 
> you're ok with limiting yourself to 20-byte hashes like REIPMD-160, the 
> size of the changes should be minimal.

Just in case Jerome really wants to go further, "almost no changes" and "minimal" refers to the fact that we have a few hard-coded hash values known to the code, such as the object name for an empty blob and an empty tree.

Sverre Rabbelier· Aug 9, 2009, 18:16 UTC · re: Junio C Hamano · lore

Re: Hash algorithm choice

Heya,
On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 11:03, Junio C Hamano<gitster@pobox.com> wrote:
> Just in case Jerome really wants to go further, "almost no changes" and
> "minimal" refers to the fact that we have a few hard-coded hash values
> known to the code, such as the object name for an empty blob and an empty
> tree.

Wouldn't the transport code also have to be modified? I assume git's integrity checking would yell at if you gave it commits with non-sha1-hashes and have no way to tell it that that hash was calculated with a non-sha1-hash at clone time?

-- 
Cheers,

Sverre Rabbelier
Linus Torvalds· Aug 9, 2009, 18:35 UTC · re: Sverre Rabbelier · lore

Re: Hash algorithm choice

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, Sverre Rabbelier wrote:
Show 5 quoted lines
>
> Wouldn't the transport code also have to be modified? I assume git's
> integrity checking would yell at if you gave it commits with
> non-sha1-hashes and have no way to tell it that that hash was
> calculated with a non-sha1-hash at clone time?

Well, if you start introducing new hashes, the assumption is that all git's that access it would have to be updated.

You certainly could never pull/push between git versions that don't know about each others hashes. But you _can_ autodetect the hash mechanism (simple: just try them all on the first object you encounter)

		Linus
Linus Torvalds· Aug 9, 2009, 18:33 UTC · re: Junio C Hamano · lore

Re: Hash algorithm choice

On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, Junio C Hamano wrote:
Show 5 quoted lines
> 
> Just in case Jerome really wants to go further, "almost no changes" and
> "minimal" refers to the fact that we have a few hard-coded hash values
> known to the code, such as the object name for an empty blob and an empty
> tree.

Once nice thing about git is also that in many ways git doesn't even _care_ about the actual hash algorithm, because read-only git will generally (always?) just use the hashes as pointers.

So you could actually create a very limited sort of git that doesn't have any hash algorithm at all - and it would still be able to do a lot of regular git operations.

Git strictly speaking needs to hash things only when
 - validating the index (ie if the index and stat data do not match). Git 
   also checks the SHA1 hash at teh end of the index file every time it 
   loads it.
 - creating new objects (ie commit)
 - git-fsck
 - probably some situation I didn't think about.
but during normal operations git doesn't strictly _need_ to hash anything.

For example, I literally just checked what happens when you break our hash algorithm on purpose, and while any index operation is unhappy and complains about index corruption:

	[torvalds@nehalem git]$ ./git diff
	error: bad index file sha1 signature
	fatal: index file corrupt

that's really largely a sanity check. You can literally do things like "git log -p" without ever generating a single hash at all - because all git will do is to look up objects based on the hashes it finds.

Now, what's nice about this is that it means that 
 (a) Hash performance only really matters for "git add" and "git fsck" 
     (well, as long as it's not _totally_ sucky. As mentioned above, we do 
     check the integrity of the index file more often, but that could be a 
     different hash than the _object_ hashes - so even if you change the 
     object hashes to be something else than SHA1, you wouldn't 
     necessarily have to change the index checksum)
 (b) You could actually afford to have git auto-detect the hashes from 
     existing objects
 (c) it's not even entirely unreasonable to mix different hashes in the 
     same repository (ie "old objects use old hash, new objects use new 
     hash".
     Aliasing (same object with different hashes) will hurt disk-space, 
     and will make some operations (like merges and 'git diff') much more 
     expensive when they hit a "hash boundary", but other than that you'd 
     never even notice.

Of course, the downside to the above is that git may not notice some kinds of corruption until you actually do things like "git fsck" (or native git transfers like "git pull", which always check the result very carefully).

For disk corruption issues, there are things like zlib Adler checksums (and xdelta crc's) etc that we always check when unpacking objects, but the hash itself only gets recomputed for fairly special events.

			Linus
Johannes Schindelin· Aug 9, 2009, 17:49 UTC · re: Jerome Baum · lore

Re: Hash algorithm choice

Hi,
On Sun, 9 Aug 2009, Jerome Baum wrote:
Show 7 quoted lines
> I just had an idea regarding git and hashing. Couldn't find any previous 
> discussion on the subject so here's what I'm thinking of:
> 
> How difficult would it be to allow users to choose a hash function 
> during git-init which is then globally used in the repo? Are there many 
> changes needed or are changes in git-hash-object and git-init 
> sufficient?
A quick search revealed this:
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/25632/focus=25735

Hth, Dscho

Matthieu Moy· Aug 9, 2009, 18:44 UTC · re: Jerome Baum · lore

Re: Hash algorithm choice

Jerome Baum <jerome@jeromebaum.com> writes:
> How difficult would it be to allow users to choose a hash function
> during git-init which is then globally used in the repo?

There's at least one really difficult thing: how do you merge two projects using two different hash functions? The Git repository, for example, has several (I don't remember how many) root repository, and was originally made of several projects (git, gitk, git gui, ...). If these projects had started using different hash functions, then, either:

* Git would have needed to learn how to merge, and record the merge
  history, of projects using different hash functions.
* One of the projects would have been forced to be converted to
  another hash function, which means changing all its identifiers (so,
  for example, finding a message on gmane telling that commit 1ab23cde
  fixes your problem wouldn't help much anymore ...).
-- 
Matthieu

← back to recent threads