# Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 10 messages from 2005-09-15 to 2005-09-16. Participants: Linus Torvalds, H. Peter Anvin, Junio C Hamano, David Kågedal, Christian Meder, Theodore Ts'o. Thread: https://gitlist.dev/t/1804 ## Linus Torvalds, 2005-09-15 03:21 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/Pine.LNX.4.58.0509142018410.26803%40g5.osdl.org In-Reply-To: <1126745323.7199.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> ``` On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote: > > debian:~# cd linux-2.6/ > debian:~/linux-2.6# git log > /usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"... What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM spec should have "less" as a dependency. Linus ``` ## H. Peter Anvin, 2005-09-15 05:20 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: <43290486.5020301@zytor.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/43290486.5020301%40zytor.com In-Reply-To: ``` Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote: > >>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/ >>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log >>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found > > > A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"... > > What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM > spec should have "less" as a dependency. > Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined. -hpa ``` ## Junio C Hamano, 2005-09-15 07:45 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: <7v7jdibwqq.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/7v7jdibwqq.fsf%40assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net In-Reply-To: <43290486.5020301@zytor.com> ``` "H. Peter Anvin" writes: > Linus Torvalds wrote: >> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote: >> >>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/ >>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log >>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found >> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"... >> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git >> RPM spec should have "less" as a dependency. > > Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined. We do, in the form of "something | ${PAGER:-less}". On Debian, "less" is Priority "standard" and my understanding is that the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly) omit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority "essential", so technically we are required to list "less" as our dependency. I do not know about RPM/Fedora. ``` ## David Kågedal, 2005-09-15 08:39 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/u5tvf12sp1v.fsf%40lysator.liu.se In-Reply-To: <7v7jdibwqq.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net> ``` Junio C Hamano writes: > "H. Peter Anvin" writes: > >> Linus Torvalds wrote: >>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote: >>> >>>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/ >>>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log >>>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found >>> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with "less"... >>> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git >>> RPM spec should have "less" as a dependency. >> >> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined. > > We do, in the form of "something | ${PAGER:-less}". > > On Debian, "less" is Priority "standard" and my understanding is > that the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly) > omit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority > "essential", so technically we are required to list "less" as > our dependency. I do not know about RPM/Fedora. On my Debian system, there is a "sensible-pager" which does a ${PAGER:-pager}, and "pager" which is a symlink to an installed pager (using the 'alternatives' system). So a Debian package should probably use one of those. -- David Kågedal ``` ## Linus Torvalds, 2005-09-15 14:39 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/Pine.LNX.4.58.0509150737030.26803%40g5.osdl.org In-Reply-To: <43290486.5020301@zytor.com> ``` On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote: > > Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined. We do. But it falls back to "less" by default. I realize that UNIX tradition is to fall back to "more", but let's face it, that's just old and broken. There's "tradition" and there's "being stupid and unable to change". Of course, if RPM supports the notion of "suggest", maybe we can make "less" a suggestion rather than a requirement, since you can still use git without it as long as you set PAGER. Linus ``` ## Linus Torvalds, 2005-09-15 16:07 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/Pine.LNX.4.58.0509150905070.26803%40g5.osdl.org In-Reply-To: ``` On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote: > > On my Debian system, there is a "sensible-pager" which does a > ${PAGER:-pager}, and "pager" which is a symlink to an installed pager > (using the 'alternatives' system). So a Debian package should > probably use one of those. Ok, this is now indisputable proof that Debian people are insane. They have "sensible-pager", but not "less"? Guys, somebody should visit a few Debian people with a baseball bat that is painted bright neon yellow, and has "CLUEBAT" written in big purple letters on it. And beat them to a quivering pulp. There's "being flexible", and there's "being a total ass". Debian is being a total ass. Linus ``` ## David Kågedal, 2005-09-15 17:48 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/u5toe6uql1w.fsf%40lysator.liu.se In-Reply-To: ``` Linus Torvalds writes: > They have "sensible-pager", but not "less"? No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly. sensible-pager is just an indirection that uses your preferred pager. This will usually be less, but if a user prefers to use e.g. "w3m" (or "more") that can be done by reconfiguring a symlink (using the update-alternatives program, or even a GUI such as galternatives). So no, they haven't replaced less with sensible-pager. They just provided another way to select which pager you want. Setting $PAGER will still work the trick. Running "sensible-pager" will check $PAGER an run that if set, otherwise run the pager selected via the alternatives sytem, which will usually be "less". The alternatives selection is done with a symlink called "/usr/bin/pager". The advantage is, I guess, consistency. Different programs don't have to encode their own default pager. To summarize: on a Debian system with "less" as the preferred pager, these four invokations are equal: $ ${PAGER:-less} $ sensible-pager $ pager $ less If you set $PAGER to something else, the first two variants will run $PAGER, while the last two will still run "less". -- David Kågedal ``` ## Linus Torvalds, 2005-09-15 18:15 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/Pine.LNX.4.58.0509151106200.26803%40g5.osdl.org In-Reply-To: ``` On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote: > > No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly. No, I did get it. It's the Debian people who don't get it. Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific packages is _insane_. In other word, no sane package will ever use "sensible-pager", because it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are "Big Poo-Bah And OverLord of the KnownUniverse" and can force everybody else to have "sensible-pager" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either (a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER. And like it or not, there are two standard pages: "more" and "less". In the immortal words: "To two shall you count. You shall not count to one, except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three, not call it 'sensible-pager'". The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called "less". And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is "more", we either install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to "less". And for people who want something else, everybody already supports the STANDARD way of saying so: "$PAGER". In other words, "sensible-pager" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for confusion and extra work. > The advantage is, I guess, consistency. Different programs don't have > to encode their own default pager. No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own maintainers. They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to non-standard behaviour. And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a lot to be said for "do it like others do it". Linus ``` ## Christian Meder, 2005-09-15 22:08 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: <1126822093.27951.74.camel@localhost> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/1126822093.27951.74.camel%40localhost In-Reply-To: ``` On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 11:15 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote: > > > > No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly. > > No, I did get it. > > It's the Debian people who don't get it. > > Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific > packages is _insane_. Actually according to Debian policy, sensible-pager is a cludge which should be used _only_ in the case that the upstream program is hard to adapt to a PAGER environment approach. Only in this case the upstream package should be patched to at least use sensible-pager. > > In other word, no sane package will ever use "sensible-pager", because > it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are "Big Poo-Bah > And OverLord of the KnownUniverse" and can force everybody else to have > "sensible-pager" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then > it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either > (a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have > normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER. > > And like it or not, there are two standard pages: "more" and "less". In > the immortal words: "To two shall you count. You shall not count to one, > except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three, > not call it 'sensible-pager'". > > The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called "less". > > And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is "more", we either > install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to "less". Debian prefers to call the symlink "pager" and let the sysadmin decide where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less. Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much better. Just wanted to nitpick. Now you can reignite your flamethrower ;-) Christian > > And for people who want something else, everybody already supports the > STANDARD way of saying so: "$PAGER". > > In other words, "sensible-pager" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for > confusion and extra work. > > > The advantage is, I guess, consistency. Different programs don't have > > to encode their own default pager. > > No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure > as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if > Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own > maintainers. > > They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now > their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to > non-standard behaviour. > > And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a > lot to be said for "do it like others do it". > > Linus > - > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in > the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html -- Christian Meder, email: chris@absolutegiganten.org The Way-Seeking Mind of a tenzo is actualized by rolling up your sleeves. (Eihei Dogen Zenji) ``` ## Theodore Ts'o, 2005-09-16 13:56 Subject: Re: "Read my lips: no more merges" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1 Message-ID: <20050916135641.GA13762@thunk.org> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20050916135641.GA13762%40thunk.org In-Reply-To: <1126822093.27951.74.camel@localhost> ``` On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 12:08:12AM +0200, Christian Meder wrote: > Debian prefers to call the symlink "pager" and let the sysadmin decide > where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream > package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less. > Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author > deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much > better. Actually, debugfs uses $DEBUGFS_PAGER:$PAGER:pager:more:less as its search path, where it looks for each executable in /usr/bin, /bin, and the current directory. Overkill, yes; but it was the best way to shut up the whiny debian users who kept on filing bug reports. (Yes, yes, I'm softie. Besides, it's userspace, and compared to GNOME, KDE, or Mozilla, the bloat involved isn't even measurable. :-) - Ted ```