# Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum 11 messages from 2008-04-08 to 2008-04-11. Participants: Dill, Miklos Vajna, Martin Langhoff, Junio C Hamano, Jakub Narebski, Wincent Colaiuta, John Goerzen, Johannes Schindelin. Thread: https://gitlist.dev/t/13027 ## Dill, 2008-04-08 21:51 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <60646ee10804081451i4e6aa23ek44280e5d367d8814@mail.gmail.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/60646ee10804081451i4e6aa23ek44280e5d367d8814%40mail.gmail.com ``` >I might be interested in this, but why the web forum format? Why not >just set up a git-users mailing list instead? Archive it on the web if >you want, but a mailing list is more suited to this kind of thing.. or >better yet a newsgroup. I usually read my mailing lists through gmane's >NNTP server anyway (like this one). I think some people just like the web forum format. It allows topics to be easily sorted and you can even go back and edit posts to update old posts. It just seems easier to use for some. The forum would allow users to easily communicate and I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek out forums for help. Dylan. ``` ## Miklos Vajna, 2008-04-08 22:25 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/20080408222501.GV11574%40genesis.frugalware.org In-Reply-To: <60646ee10804081451i4e6aa23ek44280e5d367d8814@mail.gmail.com> ``` On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote: > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek > out forums for help. i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on this mailing list? yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a mail client? :) ``` ## Dill, 2008-04-08 22:32 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <60646ee10804081532s2c444458ieb5aa36b79c42339@mail.gmail.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/60646ee10804081532s2c444458ieb5aa36b79c42339%40mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org> ``` I just think it's handy for variety. Doesn't hurt to have multiple sources of info. Yes someone could search this mailing list but a forum is useful as well. Just different. ohh and gitforum.net should work now > > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek > > out forums for help. > > i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on > this mailing list? > > yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but > how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a > mail client? :) > ``` ## Martin Langhoff, 2008-04-08 22:36 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <46a038f90804081536h7a19803apb401ed60593d9802@mail.gmail.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/46a038f90804081536h7a19803apb401ed60593d9802%40mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: <20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org> ``` On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna wrote: > On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote: > > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek > > out forums for help. > > i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on > this mailing list? > > yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but > how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a > mail client? :) Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views, including ads ;-) One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times. Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a "git-users" list - most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a forum. cheers, m -- martin.langhoff@gmail.com martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ``` ## Dill, 2008-04-08 22:45 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <60646ee10804081545k6031578dxbae4c644fb7d2833@mail.gmail.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/60646ee10804081545k6031578dxbae4c644fb7d2833%40mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: <46a038f90804081536h7a19803apb401ed60593d9802@mail.gmail.com> ``` On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Martin Langhoff wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote: > > > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek > > > out forums for help. > > > > i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on > > this mailing list? > > > > yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but > > how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a > > mail client? :) > > Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views, > including ads ;-) > > One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't > want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's > make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting > user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times. > > Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a "git-users" list - > most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a > forum. > > cheers, I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though. Dylan. ``` ## Martin Langhoff, 2008-04-08 22:51 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <46a038f90804081551u44d7b4cald5a00e74ee479dc1@mail.gmail.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/46a038f90804081551u44d7b4cald5a00e74ee479dc1%40mail.gmail.com In-Reply-To: <60646ee10804081545k6031578dxbae4c644fb7d2833@mail.gmail.com> ``` On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Dill wrote: > I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to > create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will > probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites > will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though. Do read the older discussions. Separating users from developers does not work well. Successful communities have mixed lists -- perhaps split by topic (linux-usb for example) but not by "participant type". Users should be guided towards this list -- cheers, m -- martin.langhoff@gmail.com martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff ``` ## Junio C Hamano, 2008-04-08 22:53 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <7vabk4klfw.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/7vabk4klfw.fsf%40gitster.siamese.dyndns.org In-Reply-To: <20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org> ``` Miklos Vajna writes: > On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote: >> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek >> out forums for help. > > i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on > this mailing list? > > yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but > how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a > mail client? :) That's Ok. Not everybody has to subscribe to this mailing list to use git. Choice is fine. I just have a suspicion that this community the "forum" announcement talks about will be a completely different community from what is known as the "Git community", whose definition is roughly "people who appear on this mailing list and/or people who help others on #git at freenode". The people in "Git community" are generally helpful bunch of people when new people have troubles, and any "Git community" will want to have people like them --- otherwise the place will end up to be full of questions, confusion, and wrong answers without much guidance and enlightenment. But I suspect the people from existing "Git community" will not bother visiting the new "forum" only to help out more new people. There must be something else that is compelling enough for them to visit there, for example, "to hunt for ideas on what's lacking" (which, by the way, is the reason I sometimes sit in #git channel, even though I am not an IRC person). But we already have the mailing list and #git for that, so that's not what this new communication channel can offer us. They need to come up with something new to entice us. In short, "forum" people need to build their own set of helpful experts if they want to have "an excellent online reference ... to get help". It takes efforts to build a new community from scratch. I am afraid that they will be pretty much on their own. But I have been wrong before. Let's see how well the new "forum" flourish (no, I do not forsee me visiting there). ``` ## Jakub Narebski, 2008-04-08 22:55 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/m34pact0ru.fsf%40localhost.localdomain In-Reply-To: <60646ee10804081545k6031578dxbae4c644fb7d2833@mail.gmail.com> ``` Dill writes: > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Martin Langhoff > wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna wrote: >>> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote: >>>> >>>> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek >>>> out forums for help. >>> >>> i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on >>> this mailing list? >>> >>> yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but >>> how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a >>> mail client? :) >> >> Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views, >> including ads ;-) >> >> One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't >> want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's >> make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting >> user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times. >> >> Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a "git-users" list - >> most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a >> forum. > > I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to > create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will > probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites > will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though. First, Git is and I think would be mainly developers tool. Developers should know how to use mailing list, either using mail client (subscribing or not) or news reader (via GMane NNTP interface). Second, there are many ways to read git mailing list (various mailing list archives, NNTP interface, IIRC also RSS interface). Third, we have #git channel on FreeNode for quick response (if possible), we have Git Homepage (and maintainer welcomes patches; the git homepage itself is maintained using git), we have Git Wiki where one can find and put information (contribute!)... Do we really need web forum? -- Jakub Narebski Poland ShadeHawk on #git ``` ## Wincent Colaiuta, 2008-04-09 10:19 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: <4457E50D-4D8A-49CB-BCA9-84EC087EDF9E@wincent.com> URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/4457E50D-4D8A-49CB-BCA9-84EC087EDF9E%40wincent.com In-Reply-To: <60646ee10804081532s2c444458ieb5aa36b79c42339@mail.gmail.com> ``` El 9/4/2008, a las 0:32, Dill escribió: > I just think it's handy for variety. Doesn't hurt to have multiple > sources of info. Yes someone could search this mailing list but a > forum is useful as well. Just different. > ohh and gitforum.net should work now Just out of interest, who'll be receiving the income (if any) from the massive Google AdWords blocks at the top of every single page? (I'm guessing the providers of the free forum hosting.) Wincent ``` ## John Goerzen, 2008-04-11 13:42 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/slrnfvuqle.dqv.jgoerzen%40katherina.lan.complete.org In-Reply-To: <46a038f90804081551u44d7b4cald5a00e74ee479dc1@mail.gmail.com> ``` On 2008-04-08, Martin Langhoff wrote: > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Dill wrote: >> I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to >> create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will >> probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites >> will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though. > > Do read the older discussions. Separating users from developers does > not work well. Successful communities have mixed lists -- perhaps > split by topic (linux-usb for example) but not by "participant type". > Users should be guided towards this list -- I don't think this is right. Debian has debian-user, debian-devel, and a host of other lists. Some are mixed (debian-kde), some aren't (debian-devel). debian-user is extremely high volume. In fact, its volume normally dwarfs that of debian-devel. As a developer, it would be virtually impossible to participate in development discussions without having to spend an inordinate amount of time each day filtering out all the discussions about KDE icons or whatnot. Not that these are *bad* discussions, or that developers never subscribe to -user, but there are some developers (such as myself) with limited time to devote to the project, and I feel my time is better spent on development than on filtering through 1000 messages each day that I'm not really interested in. Moreover, as a *user* of some projects, I appreciate the distinction as well. I do not want to be a pest to the developers that are donating their time to improve the project I benefit from when my question could be perfectly well addressed by other users more experienced than I. As an example, I subscribe to the MythTV user list but not the development list. There are all sorts of discussions there -- everything from what TVs are best in different situations to discussions over cable company encryption and setup of the MythTV web interface. I don't read most of them, but find some interesting. At the same time, I am not really interested in the latest SVN commits for MythTV. I upgrade my box maybe once a year and don't really care about development internals, so as a user, this separation benefits me too. I don't see a -user list as a bad thing for a community the size of Git. Think about it this way: once the Windows stuff for Git gets mature (to the TortoiseGit level), there are going to be a lot of people using Git that really *can't* operate a mail client because the only "mail client" at their disposal is Outlook. -- John ``` ## Johannes Schindelin, 2008-04-11 18:00 Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum Message-ID: URL: https://gitlist.dev/e/alpine.DEB.1.00.0804111655000.31025%40eeepc-johanness In-Reply-To: ``` Hi, On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, John Goerzen wrote: > Think about it this way: once the Windows stuff for Git gets mature (to > the TortoiseGit level), there are going to be a lot of people using Git > that really *can't* operate a mail client because the only "mail client" > at their disposal is Outlook. That's a scary thought. I will stop all my work on git-cheetah. Ciao, Dscho ```