{"thread":{"id":"9687","subject":"Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows)","startedAt":"2007-08-29T09:31:10Z","lastAt":"2007-09-02T00:20:20Z","messageCount":5,"participants":["Wincent Colaiuta","David Kastrup","Andreas Ericsson","Nix"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"51787","messageId":"1BA15C6C-1F37-401B-B8D8-4BD147CF5225@wincent.com","threadId":"9687","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0708290321530.28586@racer.site","subject":"Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows)","fromName":"Wincent Colaiuta","fromEmail":"win@wincent.com","sentAt":"2007-08-29T09:31:10Z","receivedAt":"2007-08-29T09:31:10Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"greg@hurrell.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/7074?v=4"},"body":"El 29/8/2007, a las 4:23, Johannes Schindelin escribió:\n\n> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:\n>\n>> El 28/8/2007, a las 22:45, Johannes Schindelin escribi?:\n>>\n>>> On Tue, 28 Aug 2007, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:\n>>>\n>>>> Personally, I don't like HFS+ much at all, but your statement that\n>>>> Mac OS X \"doesn't even have a case sensitive filesystem\" is false.\n>>>\n>>> It is right that they support it.  But since the _default_ is case\n>>> insensitive (but only as long as it is not _reporting_ file  \n>>> names), it\n>>> is _as bad_ as \"doesn't even have a case sensitive filesystem\".  No\n>>> sophistry helps here.\n>>\n>> I don't think my correction qualifies as \"sophistry\" by any  \n>> reasonable\n>> definition of the word. Andreas claimed that Apple had turned \"a\n>> perfectly decent unix-clone such as FreeBSD into some defect  \n>> monstrosity\n>> that doesn't even have a case sensitive filesystem\"; I merely  \n>> sought to\n>> correct his misstatement.\n>\n> I acknowledged that.\n>\n> But it does not change the _meaning_ of Andreas' criticism.  They  \n> took a\n> perfectly sane system, and turned it into a mess.\n\nI don't think it's productive to enter into arguments about whether a  \nparticular operating system is a \"monstrosity\", \"sane\" or \"a mess\";  \nthat's why I limited my comment to a correction of a factual  \nmisstatement by Andreas and left the opinion part unchallenged. We  \ncould have avoided this thread if instead of \"doesn't even have a  \ncase sensitive filesystem\", he'd started his flame with \"defaults to  \na using a case-insensitive filesystem\".\n\n> Yes, you _can_ change the setting.  No, most don't.  Yes, the  \n> effect is...\n> you guessed it: the same as if they did not allow case sensitivity  \n> at all.\n\nWhile I agree that most just accept the default, your argument here  \nand in your previous email is spurious; it amounts to saying \"A and B  \nis offered, but because A is the default it is the same as if B were  \nnot supported at all\", which isn't valid logic. If you limited your  \nargument to criticizing case-insensitive filesystems then I would  \nhave to agree with you; I am not a fan of them. Likewise, if you said  \nthat the default has undesirable consequences I would also concur.  \nIt's your attempt to extend your claim to an argument for equivalence  \nthat I can't buy.\n\n> Plenty of people have this setup\n\nAgreed...\n\n> and we have to suffer.\n\nbut, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much  \n\"suffering\" has this really caused you? I gather that you're not even  \na user of that operating system; I am (have been since the first  \ndeveloper previews), have always accepted the default filesystem  \nchoice, don't even like the filesystem (have ranted repeatedly about  \nits flakiness on my weblog), but I think I've run into case- \ninsensitivity issues two times. If you want to talk about \"suffering\"  \nthen ask me about HFS+ data integrity.\n\nCheers,\nWincent\n"},{"id":"51790","messageId":"864piillqs.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz","threadId":"9687","inReplyTo":"1BA15C6C-1F37-401B-B8D8-4BD147CF5225@wincent.com","subject":"Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows)","fromName":"David Kastrup","fromEmail":"dak@gnu.org","sentAt":"2007-08-29T09:43:07Z","receivedAt":"2007-08-29T09:43:07Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"dak@gnu.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/52141349?v=4"},"body":"Wincent Colaiuta <win@wincent.com> writes:\n\n> El 29/8/2007, a las 4:23, Johannes Schindelin escribió:\n>\n>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2007, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:\n>>\n>> But it does not change the _meaning_ of Andreas' criticism.  They\n>> took a perfectly sane system, and turned it into a mess.\n>\n> While I agree that most just accept the default, your argument here\n> and in your previous email is spurious; it amounts to saying \"A and\n> B is offered, but because A is the default it is the same as if B\n> were not supported at all\", which isn't valid logic. If you limited\n> your argument to criticizing case-insensitive filesystems then I\n> would have to agree with you; I am not a fan of them. Likewise, if\n> you said that the default has undesirable consequences I would also\n> concur.  It's your attempt to extend your claim to an argument for\n> equivalence that I can't buy.\n\nRead up on his posting history.\n\n>> Plenty of people have this setup\n>\n> Agreed...\n>\n>> and we have to suffer.\n>\n> but, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much\n> \"suffering\" has this really caused you? I gather that you're not\n> even a user of that operating system;\n\nHe is the main worker on the MSYS port of git as far as I can tell,\nwhile not using Windows as his work platform.  So indeed he gets to\nbear _all_ the pain, and no personal gain.  Since I have provided for\nWindows/MSYS compatibility in AUCTeX's _installation_ procedure (a\nsmall part of the project which is mostly operating system agnostic),\na much smaller stuff under similar circumstances, I can vouch for the\namount of hassle such a seemingly \"everything we need should be there\nin principle\" Windows accommodation task causes.\n\nAnd I actually find it extremely distasteful how little involvement in\nthis project is there from genuine Windows users: most restrict\nthemselves to complaining.\n\nSo at least on this account, I think you are not doing him justice.\n\n> I am (have been since the first developer previews), have always\n> accepted the default filesystem choice, don't even like the\n> filesystem (have ranted repeatedly about its flakiness on my\n> weblog), but I think I've run into case- insensitivity issues two\n> times. If you want to talk about \"suffering\" then ask me about HFS+\n> data integrity.\n\n-- \nDavid Kastrup\n"},{"id":"51795","messageId":"46D543A9.3050105@op5.se","threadId":"9687","inReplyTo":"1BA15C6C-1F37-401B-B8D8-4BD147CF5225@wincent.com","subject":"Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows)","fromName":"Andreas Ericsson","fromEmail":"ae@op5.se","sentAt":"2007-08-29T10:00:09Z","receivedAt":"2007-08-29T10:00:09Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ae@op5.se","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/426e89595c75a8f5252dd0c989e5fabe5bcac616e68557427ad9aef6b0ca342a?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Wincent Colaiuta wrote:\n> El 29/8/2007, a las 4:23, Johannes Schindelin escribió:\n> \n>>\n>> I acknowledged that.\n>>\n>> But it does not change the _meaning_ of Andreas' criticism.  They took a\n>> perfectly sane system, and turned it into a mess.\n> \n> I don't think it's productive to enter into arguments about whether a \n> particular operating system is a \"monstrosity\", \"sane\" or \"a mess\"; \n> that's why I limited my comment to a correction of a factual \n> misstatement by Andreas and left the opinion part unchallenged. We could \n> have avoided this thread if instead of \"doesn't even have a case \n> sensitive filesystem\", he'd started his flame with \"defaults to a using \n> a case-insensitive filesystem\".\n> \n>> Yes, you _can_ change the setting.  No, most don't.  Yes, the effect \n>> is...\n>> you guessed it: the same as if they did not allow case sensitivity at \n>> all.\n> \n> While I agree that most just accept the default, your argument here and \n> in your previous email is spurious; it amounts to saying \"A and B is \n> offered, but because A is the default it is the same as if B were not \n> supported at all\", which isn't valid logic. If you limited your argument \n> to criticizing case-insensitive filesystems then I would have to agree \n> with you; I am not a fan of them. Likewise, if you said that the default \n> has undesirable consequences I would also concur. It's your attempt to \n> extend your claim to an argument for equivalence that I can't buy.\n> \n\nMy original comment was in error. I was unaware that Apple shipped\ndifferent filesystems and that there was actually a choice. Me having\nsat by a friend who did his installation didn't realize I had the option\nof using a case-sensitive filesystem, so I assumed it wasn't there, which\nonly goes to show that assumption indeed is the mother of all fuckups. Not\nwanting a pointless discussion in which everyone agrees in spirit but\nnitpicks about factual details, I didn't respond to any of the posts.\n\nSince it seems we all agree that case-insensitive, case-reporting file-\nsystems are disgusting and it's now thoroughly proven that Apple does\nindeed ship a proper filesystem with its OS X releases, can we please\ndrop this now and move on to trying to improve things? I'll take\nuniversal silence on the subject as \"good idea, let's do that\"\n\n> \n>> and we have to suffer.\n> \n> but, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much \n> \"suffering\" has this really caused you?\n\nPlenty enough, I should imagine. As David Kastrup mentioned, Dscho\ndoes extensive work on MSYS/MingW while not using it himself.\n\nBesides that, there are all these timeconsuming threads that some\nignorant dumbass (in this case me) turn into silly pie-fights with\nsome uninformed remark that is overly tainted by personal opinion.\n\nMy apologies. I shall do my research better in the future.\n\n-- \nAndreas Ericsson                   andreas.ericsson@op5.se\nOP5 AB                             www.op5.se\nTel: +46 8-230225                  Fax: +46 8-230231\n"},{"id":"51796","messageId":"CE133B5E-C2A2-4CC3-8F49-7D7744593EDB@wincent.com","threadId":"9687","inReplyTo":"864piillqs.fsf@lola.quinscape.zz","subject":"Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows)","fromName":"Wincent Colaiuta","fromEmail":"win@wincent.com","sentAt":"2007-08-29T10:04:01Z","receivedAt":"2007-08-29T10:04:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"greg@hurrell.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/7074?v=4"},"body":"El 29/8/2007, a las 11:43, David Kastrup escribió:\n\n>>> Plenty of people have this setup\n>>\n>> Agreed...\n>>\n>>> and we have to suffer.\n>>\n>> but, don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? How much\n>> \"suffering\" has this really caused you? I gather that you're not\n>> even a user of that operating system;\n>\n> He is the main worker on the MSYS port of git as far as I can tell,\n> while not using Windows as his work platform.  So indeed he gets to\n> bear _all_ the pain, and no personal gain.\n\nIf you look at the thread, his comments in this instance were about  \nMac OS X, not Windows.\n\nAs for Dscho's Window's-related pain, I do sympathize.\n\nCheers,\nWincent\n"},{"id":"52159","messageId":"87bqcluddn.fsf@hades.wkstn.nix","threadId":"9687","inReplyTo":"alpine.LFD.0.999.0708281555580.25853@woody.linux-foundation.org","subject":"Re: git: cannot rename foo to Foo on a case-insensitive filesystem (e.g. on Windows)","fromName":"Nix","fromEmail":"nix@esperi.org.uk","sentAt":"2007-09-02T00:20:20Z","receivedAt":"2007-09-02T00:20:20Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"nix@esperi.org.uk","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/6503005?v=4"},"body":"On 29 Aug 2007, Linus Torvalds verbalised:\n> And if you use that algorithm, them 'ß' and 'ss' are equal in a \n> case-insensitive filesystem. \n>\n> Does anybody do that? I don't know. But I sure as hell wouldn't be \n> surprised.\n\nOh yes, they do. Guess what I spent the last month fixing in a huge heap\nof proprietary software. Of course the problem is not truly fixable\nbecause of the potentially unbounded set of context-dependent stuff such\nas `Masse'.\n\n(I hear some people got a summer holiday...)\n"}]}