{"thread":{"id":"63027","subject":"git-mentoring Google group replacement?","startedAt":"2025-02-28T22:42:58Z","lastAt":"2025-03-02T11:11:42Z","messageCount":3,"participants":["Emily Shaffer","Junio C Hamano","Christian Couder"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"513303","messageId":"CAJoAoZnk88ZFZFdEtUxMnUa1OZiXYOgcw8DSbB+A0LzyCPFugg@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"63027","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"git-mentoring Google group replacement?","fromName":"Emily Shaffer","fromEmail":"nasamuffin@google.com","sentAt":"2025-02-28T22:42:43Z","receivedAt":"2025-02-28T22:42:58Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"nasamuffin@google.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1606826?v=4"},"body":"Hi all,\n\nFor a few years we've had this git-mentoring@googlegroups.com list,\nwith the intention to give new or aspiring contributors a lower-stress\nplace to ask for guidance when they're just getting started in the\nproject.\n\nThe list has very very low activity. I think we get a newbie asking\nfor help once or twice a year, and they do get responses right away as\nfar as I can see; but we much more often get spam, spam, and more\nspam. We also tend to get spurious content violation reporting - from\nbots I guess, or maybe trolls - and these lead to legitimate\nconversations being deleted from the archive. This happened a couple\nweeks ago and we lost all conversations but 2. There doesn't appear to\nbe any way in Google Groups to appeal these decisions - the\nnotification email that was sent to the list owners simply suggests\nthat we...get a lawyer?[1] We had a similar takedown last year or so,\nand I tried to escalate using Google's internal ticketing for\nemployees, and didn't get very far there either.\n\nBecause it's not possible for us to push back on these takedowns, I\nthink it's time for us to seek an alternative and shut down the Google\nGroups list.\n\nDscho proposed shutting down the Google Groups and having people ask\nin the Discord chat instead. I think it's reasonable; we've had a few\nnewbies asking for contribution advice there and they get answers just\nas quickly, and we get a bit more moderation control. Discord is still\nnot scrapable by web crawlers (which is one thing that was appealing\nto us about a closed Google Group). It does require account creation\nto post, but of course we still have git@vger, which does not; this\nmentoring-specific channel/list is supposed to just be an alternative\nfor the especially shy.\n\nThoughts? Alternate suggestions? I'd also be happy to host a list with\nsome other service, but I don't have any personal experience on which\nservices are good to use or not.\n\n - Emily\n\n1: Here's a sample of the takedown message from Feb 16, 2025; because\nthe content was down, the link helpfully does not point to any actual\ncontent. I have no idea which mail was actually taken down, because\nthere's not a good way to translate from Groups URL to Message-Id as\nfar as I can tell.\n\nHello emilyshaffer@google.com,\n\nWe're letting you know that we've permanently removed the content at\nhttps://groups.google.com/d/msg/git-mentoring/mPiraiIITXI/cdsNx2elAgAJ\n\nWhy did this happen?\n\nAn external report flagged the content for illegal content or policy\nviolations. As a result, our legal content and policy standards team\nremoved the content for the following reason: unwanted content.\n\nLearn more\n\nYou can learn more about our content policies and enforcement at our\nhelp center.\n\nWhat you can do next\n\nYou may have the option to pursue your claims in court. If you have\nlegal questions or wish to examine legal options that may be available\nto you, you may want to consult with your own legal counsel.\n"},{"id":"513304","messageId":"xmqqcyf11wqq.fsf@gitster.g","threadId":"63027","inReplyTo":"CAJoAoZnk88ZFZFdEtUxMnUa1OZiXYOgcw8DSbB+A0LzyCPFugg@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-mentoring Google group replacement?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2025-02-28T23:21:33Z","receivedAt":"2025-02-28T23:21:36Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Emily Shaffer writes:\n\n> Thoughts? Alternate suggestions? I'd also be happy to host a list with\n> some other service, but I don't have any personal experience on which\n> services are good to use or not.\n\nI am perfectly fine to close the unusable list, and suggest folks to\nredirect to discord or other services. If the discord channel is\nalready found to be useful by those new folks who have been helped\nthere, that would be excellent, and then the question would become\n\n - what other avenues to ask for help, other than this list, are\n there that community members are willing to support by visiting\n there frequently and help out? can we compile a list? I am\n perfectly fine we start with a list with one entry in it.\n\n - where do we want to advertise such a list?\n Documentation/Contributing? todo:MaintNotes (aka \"A note from\n the Maintainer\")?\n\n - how would we maintain such a list to keep it up-to-date?\n\n"},{"id":"513363","messageId":"CAP8UFD39TsG6zzyjGbJyg20EuhW29u1QiQerAMcGUkToL-A3GQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"63027","inReplyTo":"CAJoAoZnk88ZFZFdEtUxMnUa1OZiXYOgcw8DSbB+A0LzyCPFugg@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-mentoring Google group replacement?","fromName":"Christian Couder","fromEmail":"christian.couder@gmail.com","sentAt":"2025-03-02T11:11:29Z","receivedAt":"2025-03-02T11:11:42Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"christian.couder@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/208954?v=4"},"body":"Hi Emily,\n\nOn Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 11:43 PM 'Emily Shaffer' via git-mentoring\n wrote:\n\n> Because it's not possible for us to push back on these takedowns, I\n> think it's time for us to seek an alternative and shut down the Google\n> Groups list.\n>\n> Dscho proposed shutting down the Google Groups and having people ask\n> in the Discord chat instead. I think it's reasonable; we've had a few\n> newbies asking for contribution advice there and they get answers just\n> as quickly, and we get a bit more moderation control. Discord is still\n> not scrapable by web crawlers (which is one thing that was appealing\n> to us about a closed Google Group). It does require account creation\n> to post, but of course we still have git@vger, which does not; this\n> mentoring-specific channel/list is supposed to just be an alternative\n> for the especially shy.\n>\n> Thoughts? Alternate suggestions? I'd also be happy to host a list with\n> some other service, but I don't have any personal experience on which\n> services are good to use or not.\n\nI agree with shutting down the Google Groups and suggesting people ask\non either Discord chat or the #git-devel IRC Channel or the Git\nmailing list.\n\nThanks.\n"}]}