{"thread":{"id":"59191","subject":"The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","startedAt":"2023-02-03T18:23:03Z","lastAt":"2023-02-09T21:46:08Z","messageCount":10,"participants":["Konstantin Ryabitsev","Junio C Hamano","Jeff King","Andrei Rybak","Christian Couder"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"471455","messageId":"20230203182255.lqla3hsme6riy4w7@meerkat.local","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Konstantin Ryabitsev","fromEmail":"konstantin@linuxfoundation.org","sentAt":"2023-02-03T18:22:55Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-03T18:23:03Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"konstantin@linuxfoundation.org","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/7cb8827c6de56e1bd2dea16508c6708aa43feed3bf3813bcdacecdf96ceadd79?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Hello, all:\n\nThere is a very sad and unkempt wiki instance running on git.wiki.kernel.org.\n\nIt grew up in the age when Internet was young, bright-eyed, and \"anyone can\nedit it\" approach was seen as a net positive thing. Then, as the armies of\nbots and SEO consultants became increasingly difficult to fight off, the\ninstance ended up being locked down just to avoid having to spend all day\nrolling back spam edits.\n\nToday, most information found on the wiki is probably outdated and therefore\npotentially harmful. I would like to solicit ideas what to do with this\nresource.\n\n# Should it be migrated to RTD-style docs?\n\nWe have stopped providing new Mediawiki instances at kernel.org quite some\ntime back, replacing the offering with Dokuwiki. Today, we don't spin up new\nDokuwiki instances either and everyone is steered towards readthedocs-style\ndocumentation instead, which is a much more sane and manageable medium than\nwikis, especially when it comes to technical docs (see\nhttps://korg.docs.kernel.org/docs.html).\n\nHowever, it's unclear if this is even needed for this wiki, considering the\nexistence of https://git-scm.com/doc.\n\n# Should it be archived as a static site?\n\nIt's possible to turn git.wiki.kernel.org into a static site with a large\nheader on every page that it contains historical archival information, with a\nlink to https://git-scm.com/doc\n\n# Should it be archived and put out of its misery?\n\nThe last option is to just archive the site and put it out of its increasingly\nirrelevant existence.\n\nThoughts?\n\n-Konstantin\n"},{"id":"471458","messageId":"xmqqedr6o7q9.fsf@gitster.g","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"20230203182255.lqla3hsme6riy4w7@meerkat.local","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2023-02-03T19:43:26Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-03T19:43:30Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Konstantin Ryabitsev writes:\n\n> Today, most information found on the wiki is probably outdated and therefore\n> potentially harmful. I would like to solicit ideas what to do with this\n> resource.\n>\n> # Should it be migrated to RTD-style docs?\n>\n> We have stopped providing new Mediawiki instances at kernel.org quite some\n> time back, replacing the offering with Dokuwiki. Today, we don't spin up new\n> Dokuwiki instances either and everyone is steered towards readthedocs-style\n> documentation instead, which is a much more sane and manageable medium than\n> wikis, especially when it comes to technical docs (see\n> https://korg.docs.kernel.org/docs.html).\n>\n> However, it's unclear if this is even needed for this wiki, considering the\n> existence of https://git-scm.com/doc.\n\nI tend to agree with this point. Presense on RTD is nice, but what\nis left in git.wiki.k.o is not something I'd consider porting it\nover; the contents of git-scm.com/ might be but that is off topic\nhere.\n\n> # Should it be archived as a static site?\n>\n> It's possible to turn git.wiki.kernel.org into a static site with a large\n> header on every page that it contains historical archival information, with a\n> link to https://git-scm.com/doc\n\nI do not know the size of regular traffic to the git.wiki.k.o; if\nmany people visit (on purpose or by mistake) there to warrant such a\nredirection, then it is very much appreciated. No current contents\nwith just \"redirect in 5 seconds---please update your bookmark\" may\nbe fine.\n\n> # Should it be archived and put out of its misery?\n>\n> The last option is to just archive the site and put it out of its increasingly\n> irrelevant existence.\n\nArchiving so that people can retrieve the contents for whatever\nreason may be needed no matter what other things are done, I would\nimagine.\n\nThanks.\n"},{"id":"471480","messageId":"Y95BEaOGJy9uBHkG@coredump.intra.peff.net","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"20230203182255.lqla3hsme6riy4w7@meerkat.local","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2023-02-04T11:27:13Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-04T11:27:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 01:22:55PM -0500, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:\n\n> Today, most information found on the wiki is probably outdated and therefore\n> potentially harmful. I would like to solicit ideas what to do with this\n> resource.\n\nYeah, my assumption is that it's totally out of date these days. I admit\nthat's subjective and maybe there are people maintaining/using it. I\nkind of suspect not, though (and if they don't reply to this thread,\nperhaps we can assume they don't exist, or at least not connected enough\nto the development community to matter).\n\n> # Should it be migrated to RTD-style docs?\n> \n> We have stopped providing new Mediawiki instances at kernel.org quite some\n> time back, replacing the offering with Dokuwiki. Today, we don't spin up new\n> Dokuwiki instances either and everyone is steered towards readthedocs-style\n> documentation instead, which is a much more sane and manageable medium than\n> wikis, especially when it comes to technical docs (see\n> https://korg.docs.kernel.org/docs.html).\n> \n> However, it's unclear if this is even needed for this wiki, considering the\n> existence of https://git-scm.com/doc.\n\nYeah, for any content we prepare as a community, the Documentation/ is\nthe right spot, and git-scm.com is just mirroring those already.\n\nFor meta-information like current-year GSoC ideas, etc, we've been using\ngit.github.io. It's not quite a wiki, in that you need access and\ncontribute to it via the git clone, but IMHO both of those are features.\nSpam is a non-issue, and anybody who wants to help out can do so either\nby being a committer, or just making a one-off pull request.\n\n> # Should it be archived as a static site?\n> \n> It's possible to turn git.wiki.kernel.org into a static site with a large\n> header on every page that it contains historical archival information, with a\n> link to https://git-scm.com/doc\n\nThis would be my preference, just because some of the old content may\nstill have value. Some pages (like old gsoc stuff) would better redirect\nto git.github.io, but it is probably not worth the time to even try to\nclassify pages.\n\n> # Should it be archived and put out of its misery?\n> \n> The last option is to just archive the site and put it out of its increasingly\n> irrelevant existence.\n\nI'm also OK with this, though if it is not too much work to serve the\nold content with a warning that it may be out-of-date, that seems\nbetter.\n\n-Peff\n"},{"id":"471483","messageId":"fa2abffa-1a35-367c-d59b-257c37d18a5f@gmail.com","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"Y95BEaOGJy9uBHkG@coredump.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Andrei Rybak","fromEmail":"rybak.a.v@gmail.com","sentAt":"2023-02-04T13:13:49Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-04T13:13:58Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"rybak.a.v@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/624072?v=4"},"body":"On 04/02/2023 12:27, Jeff King wrote:\n> On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 01:22:55PM -0500, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:\n> \n>> Today, most information found on the wiki is probably outdated and therefore\n>> potentially harmful. I would like to solicit ideas what to do with this\n>> resource.\n> \n> Yeah, my assumption is that it's totally out of date these days. I admit\n> that's subjective and maybe there are people maintaining/using it. I\n> kind of suspect not, though (and if they don't reply to this thread,\n> perhaps we can assume they don't exist, or at least not connected enough\n> to the development community to matter).\n\nMy knowledge of MediaWiki is not good enough to give a definitive answer,\nbut it seems that active editing stopped at the end of 2021.\n\nOne of most actively edited articles seems to be \"GitHosting\":\n\n https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php?title=GitHosting&action=history\n\nIt seems that it is mostly edited by editors who are promoting Git hosting\nthey are affiliated with. Article \"Interfaces, frontends, and tools\" also\ngot a lot of edits in 2020 and some in 2021:\n\n https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php?title=Interfaces,_frontends,_and_tools&action=history\n\nDiff of the latest edit on the article \"Git\" is a bit telling:\n\n https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php?title=Git&diff=31274&oldid=8420\n\nWebsite https://git-scm.com existed in some form since at least 2008,\ncurrent website's initial commit dates to 2012-03-06, but the article\n\"Git\" on the wiki didn't have a link to it until 2019. The article also\nhasn't been edited at all between 2010 and 2019.\n"},{"id":"471488","messageId":"CAP8UFD1q7-XbX4C_NjyL7A-6n6Nc4MgSbUKnzQOiRyKRMtLv_w@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"Y95BEaOGJy9uBHkG@coredump.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Christian Couder","fromEmail":"christian.couder@gmail.com","sentAt":"2023-02-04T14:03:16Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-04T14:03:31Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"christian.couder@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/208954?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Feb 4, 2023 at 12:48 PM Jeff King wrote:\n>\n> On Fri, Feb 03, 2023 at 01:22:55PM -0500, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:\n\n> > # Should it be archived as a static site?\n> >\n> > It's possible to turn git.wiki.kernel.org into a static site with a large\n> > header on every page that it contains historical archival information, with a\n> > link to https://git-scm.com/doc\n>\n> This would be my preference, just because some of the old content may\n> still have value. Some pages (like old gsoc stuff) would better redirect\n> to git.github.io, but it is probably not worth the time to even try to\n> classify pages.\n\nThis would be my preference too. I agree that some old content might\nstill have some value. We could also move or redirect some old content\nto git.github.io, but I am not sure it's worth the time either.\n\n> > # Should it be archived and put out of its misery?\n> >\n> > The last option is to just archive the site and put it out of its increasingly\n> > irrelevant existence.\n>\n> I'm also OK with this, though if it is not too much work to serve the\n> old content with a warning that it may be out-of-date, that seems\n> better.\n\nI agree.\n\nThanks,\nChristian.\n"},{"id":"471609","messageId":"20230206214101.fe6rismtfzv4k75n@meerkat.local","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"CAP8UFD1q7-XbX4C_NjyL7A-6n6Nc4MgSbUKnzQOiRyKRMtLv_w@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Konstantin Ryabitsev","fromEmail":"konstantin@linuxfoundation.org","sentAt":"2023-02-06T21:41:01Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-06T21:41:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"konstantin@linuxfoundation.org","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/7cb8827c6de56e1bd2dea16508c6708aa43feed3bf3813bcdacecdf96ceadd79?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Feb 04, 2023 at 03:03:16PM +0100, Christian Couder wrote:\n> > > # Should it be archived as a static site?\n> > >\n> > > It's possible to turn git.wiki.kernel.org into a static site with a large\n> > > header on every page that it contains historical archival information, with a\n> > > link to https://git-scm.com/doc\n> >\n> > This would be my preference, just because some of the old content may\n> > still have value. Some pages (like old gsoc stuff) would better redirect\n> > to git.github.io, but it is probably not worth the time to even try to\n> > classify pages.\n> \n> This would be my preference too. I agree that some old content might\n> still have some value. We could also move or redirect some old content\n> to git.github.io, but I am not sure it's worth the time either.\n\nOkay, here's what I have:\n\nhttps://archive.kernel.org/oldwiki/git.wiki.kernel.org/\n\nIt's just a static scrape excluding all Special: and User: pages, and carrying\na very large \"OBSOLETE CONTENT\" warning.\n\nThe idea is that requests to git.wiki.kernel.org will be redirected to the\narchive pages and thus hopefully preserve the content for historical reasons.\n\nUnless someone objects within the next few days, I'll proceed with this plan.\n\n-K\n"},{"id":"471678","messageId":"CAP8UFD3VFt-9eXbcSDgXOYsCnj1-drjYS5c2dqhCDF9fPWSbJg@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"20230206214101.fe6rismtfzv4k75n@meerkat.local","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Christian Couder","fromEmail":"christian.couder@gmail.com","sentAt":"2023-02-07T11:53:26Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-07T11:53:41Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"christian.couder@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/208954?v=4"},"body":"On Mon, Feb 6, 2023 at 10:41 PM Konstantin Ryabitsev\n wrote:\n>\n> On Sat, Feb 04, 2023 at 03:03:16PM +0100, Christian Couder wrote:\n> > > > # Should it be archived as a static site?\n> > > >\n> > > > It's possible to turn git.wiki.kernel.org into a static site with a large\n> > > > header on every page that it contains historical archival information, with a\n> > > > link to https://git-scm.com/doc\n> > >\n> > > This would be my preference, just because some of the old content may\n> > > still have value. Some pages (like old gsoc stuff) would better redirect\n> > > to git.github.io, but it is probably not worth the time to even try to\n> > > classify pages.\n> >\n> > This would be my preference too. I agree that some old content might\n> > still have some value. We could also move or redirect some old content\n> > to git.github.io, but I am not sure it's worth the time either.\n>\n> Okay, here's what I have:\n>\n> https://archive.kernel.org/oldwiki/git.wiki.kernel.org/\n>\n> It's just a static scrape excluding all Special: and User: pages, and carrying\n> a very large \"OBSOLETE CONTENT\" warning.\n>\n> The idea is that requests to git.wiki.kernel.org will be redirected to the\n> archive pages and thus hopefully preserve the content for historical reasons.\n>\n> Unless someone objects within the next few days, I'll proceed with this plan.\n\nGreat, thanks!\n"},{"id":"471703","messageId":"Y+KT9pHivnUyyu0K@coredump.intra.peff.net","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"20230206214101.fe6rismtfzv4k75n@meerkat.local","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2023-02-07T18:09:58Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-07T18:10:03Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Mon, Feb 06, 2023 at 04:41:01PM -0500, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote:\n\n> On Sat, Feb 04, 2023 at 03:03:16PM +0100, Christian Couder wrote:\n> > > > # Should it be archived as a static site?\n> > > >\n> > > > It's possible to turn git.wiki.kernel.org into a static site with a large\n> > > > header on every page that it contains historical archival information, with a\n> > > > link to https://git-scm.com/doc\n> > >\n> > > This would be my preference, just because some of the old content may\n> > > still have value. Some pages (like old gsoc stuff) would better redirect\n> > > to git.github.io, but it is probably not worth the time to even try to\n> > > classify pages.\n> > \n> > This would be my preference too. I agree that some old content might\n> > still have some value. We could also move or redirect some old content\n> > to git.github.io, but I am not sure it's worth the time either.\n> \n> Okay, here's what I have:\n> \n> https://archive.kernel.org/oldwiki/git.wiki.kernel.org/\n> \n> It's just a static scrape excluding all Special: and User: pages, and carrying\n> a very large \"OBSOLETE CONTENT\" warning.\n\nThat looks just fine to me. Thanks for taking care of this!\n\n-Peff\n"},{"id":"471879","messageId":"20230209213118.lhyjdndhs5ouk36w@meerkat.local","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"Y+KT9pHivnUyyu0K@coredump.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Konstantin Ryabitsev","fromEmail":"konstantin@linuxfoundation.org","sentAt":"2023-02-09T21:31:18Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-09T21:31:24Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"konstantin@linuxfoundation.org","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/7cb8827c6de56e1bd2dea16508c6708aa43feed3bf3813bcdacecdf96ceadd79?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 01:09:58PM -0500, Jeff King wrote:\n> > Okay, here's what I have:\n> > \n> > https://archive.kernel.org/oldwiki/git.wiki.kernel.org/\n> > \n> > It's just a static scrape excluding all Special: and User: pages, and carrying\n> > a very large \"OBSOLETE CONTENT\" warning.\n> \n> That looks just fine to me. Thanks for taking care of this!\n\nThis is now done. Thank you, everyone.\nThe git.wiki.kernel.org site is now permanently archived.\n\n-Konstantin\n"},{"id":"471881","messageId":"xmqqy1p6ldgj.fsf@gitster.g","threadId":"59191","inReplyTo":"20230209213118.lhyjdndhs5ouk36w@meerkat.local","subject":"Re: The sad state of git.wiki.kernel.org","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2023-02-09T21:46:04Z","receivedAt":"2023-02-09T21:46:08Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Konstantin Ryabitsev writes:\n\n> On Tue, Feb 07, 2023 at 01:09:58PM -0500, Jeff King wrote:\n>> > Okay, here's what I have:\n>> > \n>> > https://archive.kernel.org/oldwiki/git.wiki.kernel.org/\n>> > \n>> > It's just a static scrape excluding all Special: and User: pages, and carrying\n>> > a very large \"OBSOLETE CONTENT\" warning.\n>> \n>> That looks just fine to me. Thanks for taking care of this!\n>\n> This is now done. Thank you, everyone.\n> The git.wiki.kernel.org site is now permanently archived.\n\nThanks.\n"}]}