{"thread":{"id":"59022","subject":"Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","startedAt":"2022-12-31T18:11:33Z","lastAt":"2023-01-12T17:17:44Z","messageCount":14,"participants":["Filip Lipien","Theodore Ts'o","rsbecker@nexbridge.com","Philip Oakley","brian m. carlson","_g e r r y _ _l o w r y _","demerphq","Konstantin Khomoutov","Rudy Rigot","Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"469714","messageId":"7hfRSnKTRnT4uJh5Pok8U8gfLm_NXzCS6w_7_Rc9OH3a9Lv8hpjySZqxDglBFC-fTOdZHi-ODCihiEHlQD9nIhUmld5jYvRx_JvB0z2IAL0=@164.ooo","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Filip Lipien","fromEmail":"aaa@164.ooo","sentAt":"2022-12-31T18:11:17Z","receivedAt":"2022-12-31T18:11:33Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"aaa@164.ooo","avatar":null},"body":"There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\nThis is not normal. \n\nGit is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n\nIt's realistic to assume, that millions of working hours were wasted due to his ignorance of developer experience.\nThe financial damage goes into the billions.\n\nI hereby request the removal of Junio C Hamano 濱野純 as the Git Maintainer.\n"},{"id":"469715","messageId":"Y7CLVESLXqy1ZLCn@mit.edu","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"7hfRSnKTRnT4uJh5Pok8U8gfLm_NXzCS6w_7_Rc9OH3a9Lv8hpjySZqxDglBFC-fTOdZHi-ODCihiEHlQD9nIhUmld5jYvRx_JvB0z2IAL0=@164.ooo","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Theodore Ts'o","fromEmail":"tytso@mit.edu","sentAt":"2022-12-31T19:19:48Z","receivedAt":"2022-12-31T19:20:22Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tytso@mit.edu","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/51416?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 06:11:17PM +0000, Filip Lipien wrote:\n> There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\n> This is not normal.\n\nIncorrect.  As of this writing, there are 146,090 quetions[1] tagged\n[git] on stackoverflow.  Compare that to the 161,963 questions[2]\ntagged [windows], or the 2,084,537 questions[3] tagged [python].\n\n[1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/git\n[2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/windows\n[3] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python\n\nThe fact that there are a large number of questions in stackoverflow\nis more a measure of a tool's popularity than anything else.  And if\nit's popular, it's probably because a large number of developers have\nfound it to be *useful*.\n\n> Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n\nIt's made for developers like me, and last I checked, I'm human.  :-)\nIt may not be made for you, but that's OK; you don't have to use it.\n\nMy personal opinion is that it has probably *saved* a net total of\nbillions of dollars of developer time, for those who know how to use\nit.\n\nBest regards,\n\n\t\t\t\t\t\t- Ted\n\nP.S.  I would commend to you Neal Stephenson's essay, \"In the\nbeginning was the command line\".  It was available for sale as a book,\nbut as it was published a while back in 1999, it's since been made\navailable for free download[4].  Unfortunately, because it was so\npopular, the resulting download traffic crashed his publisher's\nwebsite, and it's no longer available there.  The best place to get it\nis here[5].\n\n[4] https://www.nealstephenson.com/in-the-beginning-was-the-command-line.html\n[5] https://github.com/danielmkarlsson/library/blob/master/Neal%20Stephenson%20-%20In%20the%20Beginning%20was%20the%20Command%20Line.pdf\n\nIt's a short read; only 60 pages in the PDF.  About midway through the\nessay, in section 11, there is a comparison made between Linux and the\nHole Hawg, an industrial drill made by the Milwaukee Tool Company.  If\nLinux is the Hole Hawg of Operating Systems, then perhaps git is the\nHole Hawg of Source Code Management systems.  If it's too much SCM for\nyou; there's no shame --- you can always choose to use lesser SCM's\nfor your own personal projects.  :-)\n\n"},{"id":"469716","messageId":"001201d91d64$732e4e90$598aebb0$@nexbridge.com","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"7hfRSnKTRnT4uJh5Pok8U8gfLm_NXzCS6w_7_Rc9OH3a9Lv8hpjySZqxDglBFC-fTOdZHi-ODCihiEHlQD9nIhUmld5jYvRx_JvB0z2IAL0=@164.ooo","subject":"RE: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"","fromEmail":"rsbecker@nexbridge.com","sentAt":"2022-12-31T22:08:39Z","receivedAt":"2022-12-31T22:09:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"randall.becker@nexbridge.ca","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/28956764?v=4"},"body":"On December 31, 2022 1:11 PM, Filip Lipien wrote:\n>There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage\n>of Git.\n>This is not normal.\n>\n>Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n\nGit is used by hundreds of thousands to millions of humans on a daily basis. It manages most of the popular operating system code and compilers and without git, CI/CD would (arguably) be where it was 20 years ago. Git is part of a critical supply chain, including automation, to deliver software to production servers and edge devices.\n\n>It's realistic to assume, that millions of working hours were wasted due to his\n>ignorance of developer experience.\n>The financial damage goes into the billions.\n\nClaims like this require extraordinary evidence; rather like claiming aliens are hacking our git repositories (they are not).\n\n>I hereby request the removal of Junio C Hamano 濱野純 as the Git Maintainer.\n\nI hereby strongly support Junio's continued participation and hope he is not disheartened by the OP request.\n\nRandall\n\n--\nBrief whoami: NonStop&UNIX developer since approximately\nUNIX(421664400)\nNonStop(211288444200000000)\n-- In real life, I talk too much.\n\n\n\n"},{"id":"469717","messageId":"HJUKdhucsV1Ec9xNrCRNQLPylBS-oxmEZZzqT48oYfzyQ7hWXT5Kg3R4aF4JuI2FvVz9rjR1pysm7Xx53GRogtR1zNzDvRbRSu0P2ce876A=@164.ooo","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"Y7CLVESLXqy1ZLCn@mit.edu","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Filip Lipien","fromEmail":"aaa@164.ooo","sentAt":"2022-12-31T23:23:03Z","receivedAt":"2022-12-31T23:23:23Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"aaa@164.ooo","avatar":null},"body":"> Incorrect. As of this writing, there are 146,090 quetions[1] tagged\n> [git] on stackoverflow. Compare that to the 161,963 questions[2]\n> tagged [windows], or the 2,084,537 questions[3] tagged [python].\n\nPlease remain on the topic. Read my initial sentence again. What has \"tagged\" to do with related? And even if, the amount of 146,090 \"tagged\" questions is absolute madness. This is insane. Just look at the ratio in comparison to Python, a programming language. It is crazy to assume that this is fine and only proves my point. No, Git is not a complex programming language like Python, nor is it a Kernel API. It is supposed to be a user-facing tool made for humans.\n\nThe fact is, that Junio C Hamano is doing a terrible job as a product manager. Because apparently, most users seem to have a problem with it. Why can this not be pointed out?\n\n------- Original Message -------\nOn Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 8:19 PM, Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:\n\n\n> \n> \n> On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 06:11:17PM +0000, Filip Lipien wrote:\n> \n> > There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\n> > This is not normal.\n> \n> \n> Incorrect. As of this writing, there are 146,090 quetions[1] tagged\n> [git] on stackoverflow. Compare that to the 161,963 questions[2]\n> tagged [windows], or the 2,084,537 questions[3] tagged [python].\n> \n> [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/git\n> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/windows\n> [3] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python\n> \n> The fact that there are a large number of questions in stackoverflow\n> is more a measure of a tool's popularity than anything else. And if\n> it's popular, it's probably because a large number of developers have\n> found it to be useful.\n> \n> > Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n> \n> \n> It's made for developers like me, and last I checked, I'm human. :-)\n> It may not be made for you, but that's OK; you don't have to use it.\n> \n> My personal opinion is that it has probably saved a net total of\n> billions of dollars of developer time, for those who know how to use\n> it.\n> \n> Best regards,\n> \n> - Ted\n> \n> P.S. I would commend to you Neal Stephenson's essay, \"In the\n> beginning was the command line\". It was available for sale as a book,\n> but as it was published a while back in 1999, it's since been made\n> available for free download[4]. Unfortunately, because it was so\n> popular, the resulting download traffic crashed his publisher's\n> website, and it's no longer available there. The best place to get it\n> is here[5].\n> \n> [4] https://www.nealstephenson.com/in-the-beginning-was-the-command-line.html\n> [5] https://github.com/danielmkarlsson/library/blob/master/Neal Stephenson - In the Beginning was the Command Line.pdf\n> \n> It's a short read; only 60 pages in the PDF. About midway through the\n> essay, in section 11, there is a comparison made between Linux and the\n> Hole Hawg, an industrial drill made by the Milwaukee Tool Company. If\n> Linux is the Hole Hawg of Operating Systems, then perhaps git is the\n> Hole Hawg of Source Code Management systems. If it's too much SCM for\n> you; there's no shame --- you can always choose to use lesser SCM's\n> for your own personal projects. :-)\n"},{"id":"469733","messageId":"1cf19990-8989-83f5-3b2c-e1b1725509a3@iee.email","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"HJUKdhucsV1Ec9xNrCRNQLPylBS-oxmEZZzqT48oYfzyQ7hWXT5Kg3R4aF4JuI2FvVz9rjR1pysm7Xx53GRogtR1zNzDvRbRSu0P2ce876A=@164.ooo","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Philip Oakley","fromEmail":"philipoakley@iee.email","sentAt":"2023-01-01T12:59:41Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-01T12:59:49Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"philipoakley@iee.email","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/914343?v=4"},"body":"On 31/12/2022 23:23, Filip Lipien wrote:\n>> Incorrect. As of this writing, there are 146,090 quetions[1] tagged\n>> [git] on stackoverflow. Compare that to the 161,963 questions[2]\n>> tagged [windows], or the 2,084,537 questions[3] tagged [python].\n> Please remain on the topic. Read my initial sentence again. What has \"tagged\" to do with related? And even if, the amount of 146,090 \"tagged\" questions is absolute madness. This is insane. Just look at the ratio in comparison to Python, a programming language. It is crazy to assume that this is fine and only proves my point. No, Git is not a complex programming language like Python, nor is it a Kernel API. It is supposed to be a user-facing tool made for humans.\n\nThe purpose of Git is to provide a Source Code Management system for\nLinux. Linux development is *distributed*, and Linux is command line\norientated.\n\nThe need for a distributed SCM required a significant shift in mind set\ncompared to previous *control* systems that were historically based on\ndrawing and physical part management systems [1].\n \nThe ability to 'manufacture' duplicate copies of code, and then modify\nthem, at speed, makes those historical methods essentially impractical /\nunworkable. Hence Git, with all it's foibles, has been widely adopted,\nas control now lies with the user. Management can still be responsible\nfor 'authentication/designation' of specific revisions.\n\nGit generally offers two world views, one that roughly matches the old\n'change control' methods (diffs), and true 'local state' view. It is\neasy to miss the subtle shift in world views.\n>\n> The fact is, that Junio C Hamano is doing a terrible job as a product manager. Because apparently, most users seem to have a problem with it. Why can this not be pointed out?\n\nJunio is not a \"product manager\". He is not 'selling' to the wider user\nbase. He is maintaining a core element of the Linux ecosystem. I doubt\nit's an easy job, balancing backward compatibility, future capability,\nand broad usability, along with code quality, security and all the rest.\n\nLearning Git is like learning Quantum Mechanics, it's just a few simple\nrules, but the mind set shift is difficult. It has action at a distance,\nand is amazingly effective.\n\nIn many ways it's the confusion between 'developer' facing, and 'user'\nfacing tooling. The nuances are different.\n\n>\n> ------- Original Message -------\n> On Saturday, December 31st, 2022 at 8:19 PM, Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:\n>\n>\n>>\n>> On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 06:11:17PM +0000, Filip Lipien wrote:\n>>\n>>> There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\n>>> This is not normal.\n>>\n>> Incorrect. As of this writing, there are 146,090 quetions[1] tagged\n>> [git] on stackoverflow. Compare that to the 161,963 questions[2]\n>> tagged [windows], or the 2,084,537 questions[3] tagged [python].\n>>\n>> [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/git\n>> [2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/windows\n>> [3] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/python\n>>\n>> The fact that there are a large number of questions in stackoverflow\n>> is more a measure of a tool's popularity than anything else. And if\n>> it's popular, it's probably because a large number of developers have\n>> found it to be useful.\n>>\n>>> Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n>>\n>> It's made for developers like me, and last I checked, I'm human. :-)\n>> It may not be made for you, but that's OK; you don't have to use it.\n>>\n>> My personal opinion is that it has probably saved a net total of\n>> billions of dollars of developer time, for those who know how to use\n>> it.\n>>\n>> Best regards,\n>>\n>> - Ted\n>>\n>> P.S. I would commend to you Neal Stephenson's essay, \"In the\n>> beginning was the command line\". \n\nIn the beginning was Jacquard looms and Hollerith cards ;-)\n\n>> It was available for sale as a book,\n>> but as it was published a while back in 1999, it's since been made\n>> available for free download[4]. Unfortunately, because it was so\n>> popular, the resulting download traffic crashed his publisher's\n>> website, and it's no longer available there. The best place to get it\n>> is here[5].\n>>\n>> [4] https://www.nealstephenson.com/in-the-beginning-was-the-command-line.html\n>> [5] https://github.com/danielmkarlsson/library/blob/master/Neal Stephenson - In the Beginning was the Command Line.pdf\n>>\n>> It's a short read; only 60 pages in the PDF. About midway through the\n>> essay, in section 11, there is a comparison made between Linux and the\n>> Hole Hawg, an industrial drill made by the Milwaukee Tool Company. If\n>> Linux is the Hole Hawg of Operating Systems, then perhaps git is the\n>> Hole Hawg of Source Code Management systems. If it's too much SCM for\n>> you; there's no shame --- you can always choose to use lesser SCM's\n>> for your own personal projects. :-)\n--\nPhilip\n\n[1] Mil Std 483, Def Stan 05-57, etc.\n\nnote, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Configuration_management#Software\ndoesn't yet mention Git ;-)\n"},{"id":"469739","messageId":"Y7H2sN1fEZ8pi6xY@tapette.crustytoothpaste.net","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"7hfRSnKTRnT4uJh5Pok8U8gfLm_NXzCS6w_7_Rc9OH3a9Lv8hpjySZqxDglBFC-fTOdZHi-ODCihiEHlQD9nIhUmld5jYvRx_JvB0z2IAL0=@164.ooo","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"brian m. carlson","fromEmail":"sandals@crustytoothpaste.net","sentAt":"2023-01-01T21:10:08Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-01T21:10:15Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"sandals@crustytoothpaste.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/497054?v=4"},"body":"On 2022-12-31 at 18:11:17, Filip Lipien wrote:\n> There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\n> This is not normal. \n>\n> Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n\nThere are also many questions related to Windows and Linux.  It is\nunsurprising that software that is flexible is also very complicated and\nthat many people may have questions about how it works or the best way\nto work with it.  Git is also extremely portable and popular and as such\nthere are many people who use it or want to use it, and therefore people\nasking many questions.\n\nAs I mentioned above, many people have questions about the best way to\naccomplish a task on Linux, which is also very popular.  We should not\nforce Linus Torvalds to step down because Linux is complex or because\npeople have many questions about it because it may differ from other\nsoftware they've used.\n\n> It's realistic to assume, that millions of working hours were wasted due to his ignorance of developer experience.\n> The financial damage goes into the billions.\n\nDo I think Git could benefit from improved developer experience?\nCertainly.  I think there would be substantial value in doing that, and\nsuch topics have been discussed at contributor summits in the past.  I\nwas left with the impression that most contributors would like to see\nthis kind of work done.\n\nHowever, I think you misunderstand how Junio acts as the maintainer\nhere.  This is not a corporation where Junio tells people what to do and\nhow to do it.\n\nInstead, this is an open-source project, and it's my impression that\nJunio spends most of his time shepherding other people's patches and\nmaking sure that the project and contributions are in a good state.  He\nsends relatively few patches himself, and while he might make a\nsuggestion on what he'd like to see out of a series or project, he\ndoesn't really tell people what to do because people don't have to\ndo what he says.\n\nAs a result, it's not really fair to blame him for a poor developer\nexperience.  If that's valuable to someone, then someone will send\npatches to work on it, and I'm confident that Junio would accept those\nonce they were suitable for merging.  If nobody has sent such patches,\nthen the presumption is that nobody is interested in doing the work for\nthat at this point, and Junio isn't going to be able to just tell people\nto work on it, since people work on what they want or what their\nemployers want (if they're working on Git in their professional\ncapacity).\n\nIn my role as a contributor, I've sent and reviewed patches that\ncorrespond to my areas of interests and expertise.  While I think a\nbetter developer experience would be valuable, I lack the experience to\ncontribute meaningfully in this regard, and as a consequence, I've sent\nno patches here.  I welcome contributions from others in this area who\nare more familiar with the work that needs to be done.\n\n> I hereby request the removal of Junio C Hamano 濱野純 as the Git Maintainer.\n\nI think, given my explanation above, that this is completely\nunwarranted.  The maintainer of this project has no authority over\nparticipants to force them to address developer experience here.\n\nWhile I don't always agree with him on everything, I think Junio is\ndoing a fine job as maintainer, and assuming things stay as they are, I\nwould be happy with him remaining as maintainer for the indefinite\nfuture.\n-- \nbrian m. carlson (he/him or they/them)\nToronto, Ontario, CA\n"},{"id":"469743","messageId":"Y7JRh6WZ1YZ2AkKJ@mit.edu","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"Y7H2sN1fEZ8pi6xY@tapette.crustytoothpaste.net","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Theodore Ts'o","fromEmail":"tytso@mit.edu","sentAt":"2023-01-02T03:37:43Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-02T03:38:20Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tytso@mit.edu","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/51416?v=4"},"body":"On Sun, Jan 01, 2023 at 09:10:08PM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:\n> Instead, this is an open-source project, and it's my impression that\n> Junio spends most of his time shepherding other people's patches and\n> making sure that the project and contributions are in a good state.  He\n> sends relatively few patches himself, and while he might make a\n> suggestion on what he'd like to see out of a series or project, he\n> doesn't really tell people what to do because people don't have to\n> do what he says.\n\nAnother way of putting this is that git is perfectly usable for\nintermediate to expert developers.  As a long-time Linux\ndeveloper/maintainer, my opinion is that git developer experience is\njust *fine*.  I like how powerful it it is; I like how it improves my\nproductivity; and I don't have any problems using git.\n\nOne of the ways this can be seen is that we haven't see a huge amount\nof contributions trying to make git more novice-firendly.  The fact\nthat we haven't seen those contributions is a strong indication that\nit's not really a problem for git development community.  And given\nthat git developers are humans, there is very clearly a set of humans\nwho find their experience of git sufficiently convivial that it's not\nworth their time to make it better.\n\nSo the claim that git has a poor developer experience is not accurate.\nIt may be that the experience for novice / beginner developers could\nbe improved, sure.  Unfortunately for novice / beginner developers,\nthey generally do not have the expertise to contribute those sorts of\npatches to git.  They can send petulant messages to the git mailing\nlist, not understanding the difference between an open source\nmaintainer and a \"product manager\", but that's not going to be\neffective.\n\nAnd by the time that they do become experienced git developers, they\nunderstand why things are the way things are, and very often, they\nwill find better things to do with their time.  For those that do\nbecome experienced git contributors and who continue to be passionate\nabout making git easier for novice users, the challenge is how to make\ngit more friendly to novices while not compromising backwards\ncompatibilty or the power that expert users are happily using every\nday.\n\nAnd of course, if they are contributing to git on company time, their\ncompany has to be willing invest their engineers' times on making git\neasier for novices, which implies that most companies will want a\nvalid business case for making git more friendly more users for\ndevelopers like (presumably), Filip.  And if we aren't seeing those\ncontributions from corporately funded git developers, perhaps that is\na strong suggestion that the business case simply doesn't exist.\n\n\t\t\t\t\t\t- Ted\n\n"},{"id":"469755","messageId":"064601d91f0e$b5521940$1ff64bc0$@abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"7hfRSnKTRnT4uJh5Pok8U8gfLm_NXzCS6w_7_Rc9OH3a9Lv8hpjySZqxDglBFC-fTOdZHi-ODCihiEHlQD9nIhUmld5jYvRx_JvB0z2IAL0=@164.ooo","subject":"RE: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"_g e r r y _ _l o w r y _","fromEmail":"gerry.lowry@abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com","sentAt":"2023-01-03T00:59:49Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-03T01:05:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gerry.lowry@abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9f7b6849ba620e0ef711ba0eeb0e5cca130fe1843f838d5393f490c3495b7bc9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Filip, maintaining software is a big responsibility; \n       if Git were easy, maintaining would still be work.\n\nis it Junio's fault that there a so many questions on SO?\n\nGit stands head and shoulders above other versioning software products;\nthe reason is that Linus designed a superior system.\n\nYou might find Git easier to use from these links:\n\nwhether first learning Git, or reviewing what one already knows, I very strongly recommends that one starts here:\nGit :: 4 short introductory videos from https://git-scm.com/doc\nTotal running time c. 25'\nhttps://git-scm.com/video/what-is-version-control\nhttps://git-scm.com/video/what-is-git\nhttps://git-scm.com/video/get-going\nhttps://git-scm.com/video/quick-wins\n4 short introductory videos from https://git-scm.com/doc\"\nNote:  imho, the 4 short videos above, although limited in content, set the tone and spirit for beginning a friendship with Git; links below actually teach you Git.\n\"Git is a free and open source distributed version control system designed to handle everything from small to very large projects with speed and efficiency.\"\nhttps://git-scm.com/\n\n\nfree via Amazon (Kindle Edition):\nRy's Git Tutorial\n By: Ryan Hodson\nhttps://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00QFIA5OC/\n\n\n21'30\"\nhttps://youtu.be/FdZecVxzJbk      Corey Schafer\n\"Git Tutorial: Fixing Common Mistakes and Undoing Bad Commits\"\n-- watch this once for an initial overview of what one can do to dig oneself out of a hole.\n-- watch this multiple times to become competent\n\n\n30'32\"\nhttps://youtu.be/HVsySz-h9r4      Corey Schafer\n\"Git Tutorial for Beginners: Command-Line Fundamentals\"\nBOTTOM LINE:  the command line is a powerful way to use Git.\n\n\nimho, Git is to version control as Tesla is to VW Beetle.\n\nFilip, sounds to me like you make stuff up, like when you write:\n  \"The financial damage goes into the billions.\"\n\n\ni stay neutral regarding Junio because unless you prove\notherwise, i imagine that Junio is both doing a decent job\nand likely not even getting paid for it.\n\n~~Gerry\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Filip Lipien <aaa@164.ooo> \nSent: Saturday, December 31, 2022 13:11\nTo: git@vger.kernel.org\nCc: torvalds@linux-foundation.org\nSubject: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer\n\nThere are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\nThis is not normal. \n\nGit is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n\nIt's realistic to assume, that millions of working hours were wasted due to his ignorance of developer experience.\nThe financial damage goes into the billions.\n\nI hereby request the removal of Junio C Hamano 濱野純 as the Git Maintainer.\n\n"},{"id":"469761","messageId":"CANgJU+V8VpM8sL=wmBnuTRzZzz-0hwzj6gP6tGhf5OhGv=K9Gg@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"7hfRSnKTRnT4uJh5Pok8U8gfLm_NXzCS6w_7_Rc9OH3a9Lv8hpjySZqxDglBFC-fTOdZHi-ODCihiEHlQD9nIhUmld5jYvRx_JvB0z2IAL0=@164.ooo","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"demerphq","fromEmail":"demerphq@gmail.com","sentAt":"2023-01-03T09:45:53Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-03T09:46:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"demerphq@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 at 19:52, Filip Lipien <aaa@164.ooo> wrote:\n>\n> There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\n> This is not normal.\n>\n> Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n\nAny tool sufficiently advanced to be useful to experts will from time\nto time surprise beginners who lack context knowledge. That is normal.\nDesigning tools to be unsurprising for beginners usually just ends up\nlimiting, frustrating or surprising the experts.\n\n> It's realistic to assume, that millions of working hours were wasted due to his ignorance of developer experience.\n> The financial damage goes into the billions.\n\nYeah, business has adopted it wholesale because it loses them\nbillions. That makes sense. Not.\n\n>\n> I hereby request the removal of Junio C Hamano 濱野純 as the Git Maintainer.\n\nThat is just rude. Having a free meal in a restaurant does not give\nyou the right to demand the head-cook steps down because you didn't\nlike the way it was laid out on the plate.  Whatever it was you\nintended to achieve with this post, this is not the way to go about\nit.\n\nNormally I would ignore a post like this as trolling, but others have\nengaged, and I wanted to express some support for Junio as I know\nthese kind of things can get even the thickest skinned hacker down.\n\nSo to Junio: Thank you for your contributions. I give you strength to\nignore the trolls.  I have stated this previously, but thanks again\nfor add --interactive, that is a super useful tool which I use and\nappreciate pretty much every single day.\n\ncheers,\nYves\n\n-- \nperl -Mre=debug -e \"/just|another|perl|hacker/\"\n"},{"id":"469765","messageId":"d84712ed-1504-4d54-a664-63713db570b6@iee.email","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"064601d91f0e$b5521940$1ff64bc0$@abilitybusinesscomputerservices.com","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Philip Oakley","fromEmail":"philipoakley@iee.email","sentAt":"2023-01-03T13:25:12Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-03T13:25:30Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"philipoakley@iee.email","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/914343?v=4"},"body":"On 03/01/2023 00:59, _g e r r y _ _l o w r y _ wrote:\n> Git stands head and shoulders above other versioning software products;\n> the reason is that Linus designed a superior system.\n\nI don't think that (\"superior\") is quite true, in the same way that\n'world class' and 'best practice' don't have the meaning they hope to\nconvey ;-)\n\nHowever, what Linus managed to do was to cut the Gordian Knot of the\nhistorical versioning systems that had their original designs created in\nthe quill pen era, and are totally unsuited for the modern, high speed\ncomputation and perfect replication digital age. Finally, I have control\nover my versioning system (at least for software)!\n\nIn some ways, Git is like the 'Coming of the Railways'. It has brought\nradical change, but at the same time, confusion, reorganisation and new\nways of thinking and working.\n\n\n*Filip* has accidentally fallen into the attribution trap of blaming the\nmaintainer, rather than having an analysis and reflection on how Git is\nbeing used in different user contexts. His user context may have\nalternate expectations to that of the Linux eco-system, but that doesn't\nexcuse the lack of self reflection.\n\n--\nPhilip\n"},{"id":"469766","messageId":"20230103150814.neevxs7trmzfbi67@carbon","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"d84712ed-1504-4d54-a664-63713db570b6@iee.email","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Konstantin Khomoutov","fromEmail":"kostix@bswap.ru","sentAt":"2023-01-03T15:08:14Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-03T15:08:33Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"kostix@bswap.ru","avatar":null},"body":"On Tue, Jan 03, 2023 at 01:25:12PM +0000, Philip Oakley wrote:\n\n[...]\n> However, what Linus managed to do was to cut the Gordian Knot of the\n> historical versioning systems that had their original designs created in\n> the quill pen era, and are totally unsuited for the modern, high speed\n> computation and perfect replication digital age. Finally, I have control\n> over my versioning system (at least for software)!\n[...]\n\nBeing pedantinc, Git was reasonably late to the party of the distributed VC\nsystems, and if not for that BitKeeper controversy, who knows whether we would\nhave Git at all ;-)\n\nStill, while I do not think that Git is where it is today only due to its\ntechnical properties, these properties are what made it got its initial\ntraction, I suppose. The design is sound and is appealing as that of Unix.\n\n"},{"id":"470095","messageId":"CANaDLWKuS4X5fyK7U0PTQTVrC2mAXf5b+TPyeBAsDPxNVJ3GDQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"20230103150814.neevxs7trmzfbi67@carbon","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Rudy Rigot","fromEmail":"rudy.rigot@gmail.com","sentAt":"2023-01-11T17:23:50Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-11T17:30:33Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"rudy.rigot@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/552279?v=4"},"body":"> Because apparently, most users seem to have a problem with it.\n\nI apologize for reopening a conversation that probably has already\ngone on too long already (I won't particularly comment on the\nmisguided attempt this thread was initially started for), but I\nactually have some limited data points about perception of Git that\ncould interest people.\n\nI'm on the project at Salesforce to move our thousand+ of developers\non our 1-million-file monolith, from ~20 years of using Perforce, to\nusing Git. Obviously it's a legitimately painful move for some, so\nwhen the project got funded as a top priority, there was a decent\namount of concerns expressed by people about Git's reputation of being\ncomplicated to use. We noted it as an adoption risk of the project,\nand we were sufficiently funded to drill into understanding that risk\nfor our user base, so we did.\n\nFor additional context, our user base is made of very diverse\ntechnical comfort levels. We have interns whose knowledge of Git is\none chapter of one class they had last year; we have people who have\nbeen working with Git at Salesforce on smaller projects for years; we\nhave people who joined recently and have been working with Git outside\nof Salesforce for years; and we have people who have been working on\nthe monolith at Salesforce for 20 years and never had to get into Git.\n\nHere are some interesting data points:\n- Our beta went live in November, and we now have 600+ users who\nonboarded. The perforce route is still being supported for now, and\nthere is no incentive to switch, so it's all organic adoption.\n- We do most of our support on an internal StackOverflow instance, and\nmove the conversation to Slack when the conversation needs to be more\nsynchronous. We braced for having to support people through struggling\nwith Git situations, but that never really happened. We currently have\n200+ StackOverflow questions from people using our product; but only\n~5 of them are about struggles with Git itself. All others are about\nthe infrastructure and tooling we built around it to mitigate our\nscale, or issues using our app's build tools, that people mistakenly\nthought were related to Git because they happened to have recently\nswitched, but were not. The wave of supporting people out of Git\nstruggles hasn't meaningfully happened so far.\n- We sat down with the customers with the loudest concerns to build\nunderstanding, and so far my read is:\n  a- A lot of concerns we've heard that can be legitimately attributed\nto something that has usability downsides with Git related to\nPerforce, also offer compelling upsides that seem to make them worth\nthe downside so far. For instance, Perforce versions per file so\npeople could \"get latest version\" on any file separately without\nimpacting their other files and their \"status\"; but when we explain\npeople the upsides of Git versioning the entire codebase at once,\nparticularly how the top root cause of local build errors have been\ndue to the perforce sync having silently failed on some files, which\ncan't happen with Git's approach, this kind of usability downside gets\nreally easy to justify.\n  b- Most users we've heard strong concerns from are people with a lot\nof seniority on core at Salesforce. A lot of their concern seems to\nboil down to the legitimate loss of value of the perforce expertise\nthey've built over the years. It is a very legitimate concern, but\nit's a concern we have chosen to disregard because we feel it ties too\nstrongly with reasons companies sometimes don't adapt, and the dangers\nthat come with it. In fact, the fact that the concerns are limited to\nthis kind of user profile tracks well with our initial feeling that\nthis move to Git would allow us to better include newcomers and\nleverage industry-wide skills.\n\nObviously this is somewhat anecdotal, our user base is basing\ncomparative judgement on one alternative only (perforce), they have\nother common needs related to the app itself being managed, and we\nhaven't yet issued a mandate for people to switch so a lot of\nconcerned people are probably hiding a bit until then. So, I'm not\nsure how representative of the broader Git user base ours is. But if\none would consider that it is reasonably representative, then it would\nfairly strongly disprove the notion that people have legitimate\nsystemic problems with Git itself.\n\nStill, I hope those data points are interesting to some. They\ndefinitely have been fascinating and surprising to me!\n"},{"id":"470154","messageId":"230112.86bkn42iou.gmgdl@evledraar.gmail.com","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"CANgJU+V8VpM8sL=wmBnuTRzZzz-0hwzj6gP6tGhf5OhGv=K9Gg@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","fromEmail":"avarab@gmail.com","sentAt":"2023-01-12T09:30:39Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-12T09:45:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"avarab@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45301?v=4"},"body":"\nOn Tue, Jan 03 2023, demerphq wrote:\n\n> On Sat, 31 Dec 2022 at 19:52, Filip Lipien <aaa@164.ooo> wrote:\n>>\n>> There are more than one million questions on Stackoverflow related to the usage of Git.\n>> This is not normal.\n>>\n>> Git is in its current state not a tool that's made for humans.\n>\n> Any tool sufficiently advanced to be useful to experts will from time\n> to time surprise beginners who lack context knowledge. That is normal.\n> Designing tools to be unsurprising for beginners usually just ends up\n> limiting, frustrating or surprising the experts.\n>\n>> It's realistic to assume, that millions of working hours were wasted due to his ignorance of developer experience.\n>> The financial damage goes into the billions.\n>\n> Yeah, business has adopted it wholesale because it loses them\n> billions. That makes sense. Not.\n>\n>>\n>> I hereby request the removal of Junio C Hamano 濱野純 as the Git Maintainer.\n>\n> That is just rude. Having a free meal in a restaurant does not give\n> you the right to demand the head-cook steps down because you didn't\n> like the way it was laid out on the plate.  Whatever it was you\n> intended to achieve with this post, this is not the way to go about\n> it.\n>\n> Normally I would ignore a post like this as trolling, but others have\n> engaged, and I wanted to express some support for Junio as I know\n> these kind of things can get even the thickest skinned hacker down.\n>\n> So to Junio: Thank you for your contributions. I give you strength to\n> ignore the trolls.  I have stated this previously, but thanks again\n> for add --interactive, that is a super useful tool which I use and\n> appreciate pretty much every single day.\n\nYes, thanks Junio!\n\nI agree on the \"trolling\" front, and just to concede part of that\nill-phrased point: As a long-term user & contributor of git I agree that\nthere's lots of cases where git's UX is bad.\n\nSome have noted in this thread that it's partially inherent complexity,\nthat's also true. Any tool supporting a DVCS workflow will probably\nalways be more complex than a CVCS (although I'd argue that's largely an\nillusion, as it just pushes complexity for e.g. conflicts outside of the\nsystem).\n\nBut part of it is just that git's UX is crappy in places. Often there's\na good reason (e.g. backwards compatibility), but often there isn't.\n\nNow, is that the fault of Junio or this development community? I don't\nthink so. I think it would be possible to have a maintainer (e.g. with\nsome BOFH attitude) that would be unreasonably hostile to user\nfriendlyness.\n\nBut it's really not that, it's just more mundane reasons.\n\nE.g.:\n\n* Much of the interface being organically grown (and some committee\n  design would have had its own issues, or never gotten off the\n  ground).\n\n  Fixing inconsistencies is possible, but runs into backwards\n  compatibility, creating more confusion by change etc.\n\n* Lots of cases where the UX could be improved, even trivially. Some\n  places where we could add advise(), or otherwise improve/fix messaging\n  come to mind (those almost never impact backwards compatibility). But\n  working on all of those requires volunteer time etc.\n\nI'd also like Git's UX improved, and don't want anyone to get the\nimpression that such changes aren't welcome here.\n\nAs someone who's pushed for much of that (from the i18n subsystem, to\nvarious new advise() etc.) my experience is that Junio's been very\nreceptive to those sort of changes, and helpful in getting them accepted\n& released.\n"},{"id":"470217","messageId":"CANaDLWL0vpuyNdfW4zPUSvnyR_GukYr-=y35fiaCLXk+fyueig@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"59022","inReplyTo":"230112.86bkn42iou.gmgdl@evledraar.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Request to remove Junio C Hamano as the Git Maintainer","fromName":"Rudy Rigot","fromEmail":"rudy.rigot@gmail.com","sentAt":"2023-01-12T16:48:39Z","receivedAt":"2023-01-12T17:17:44Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"rudy.rigot@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/552279?v=4"},"body":"Oh, I know your email was not in response to mine Ævar, but I feel I\nshould clarify anyway.\n\nWe're glad that our data points about our internal adoption are\nlooking good about Git itself, but that is absolutely not to say that\nthere isn't a lot of room for improvement on Git's UX. I fully agree\nwith how Ævar put it. If anybody had in mind to do work to improve UX,\nplease don't read my previous message as meaning that such\nimprovements would be pointless.\n\nI've been lurking through a number of threads of the mailing list for\nthe past few months, and it doesn't seem to me that UX-related patches\naren't getting attention, quite the opposite. That is a great thing,\nbecause UX is hard to get right (particularly for powerful tools), and\nobviously that kind of work doesn't have a finish line. I'd argue\nthose are some of the most interesting threads on here, and I hope\npeople feel reassured that they will be supported through those.\n"}]}