{"thread":{"id":"55736","subject":"Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","startedAt":"2021-05-19T17:47:30Z","lastAt":"2021-07-02T15:23:18Z","messageCount":24,"participants":["Emily Shaffer","Jonathan Nieder","Junio C Hamano","Michal Suchánek","Jeff King","Kevin Daudt","Felipe Contreras","Randall S. Becker","Taylor Blau","Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","Đoàn Trần Công Danh","Jan Krüger","Phillip Susi"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"424975","messageId":"CAJoAoZ=e62sceNpcR5L5zjsj177uczTnXjcAg+BbOoOkeH8vXQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Emily Shaffer","fromEmail":"emilyshaffer@google.com","sentAt":"2021-05-19T17:47:15Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-19T17:47:30Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"nasamuffin@google.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1606826?v=4"},"body":"Seems like there's been some kerfuffle with Freenode staff and new\nownership[1][2][3]. What does this mean for Git project? I think #git\non Freenode isn't maintained by Git developers directly, right? (And\nanyways, the MOTD on #git says the moderators of that channel are\nmonitoring the \"Freenode situation\" with a pointer to [2].) We do\ntheoretically keep up #git-devel on Freenode, though it's largely\nsilent. Should we be worrying? Migrating? Deciding the low traffic on\n#git-devel means it's not worth moving? I'm not sure how to balance\nbeing alarmist and being practical here, but I thought it was worth\nbringing up on-list.\n\n - Emily\n\n[1] https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html\n[2] https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409\n[3] https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt\n"},{"id":"424977","messageId":"YKViF9OVLeA95JPH@google.com","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"CAJoAoZ=e62sceNpcR5L5zjsj177uczTnXjcAg+BbOoOkeH8vXQ@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Jonathan Nieder","fromEmail":"jrnieder@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-19T19:08:07Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-19T19:08:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jrnieder@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/281595?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nEmily Shaffer wrote[0]:\n\n> Seems like there's been some kerfuffle with Freenode staff and new\n> ownership[1][2][3]. What does this mean for Git project? I think #git\n> on Freenode isn't maintained by Git developers directly, right?\n\nhttps://gitirc.eu/ involved a lot of work by Jan Krüger (thanks!), so\ncc-ing him since he likely knows who else is active there.\n\n[...]\n>                                                             We do\n> theoretically keep up #git-devel on Freenode, though it's largely\n> silent. Should we be worrying? Migrating?\n\nThe main practical struggle on #git-devel has been spam.  I don't know\nthat any particular IRC network is better at spam prevention than\nothers.\n\nIt looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to\nhttps://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another\nalternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by\nirc.debian.org, for example.\n\nThere are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open\nsource, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by\nChromium); each has its benefits and flaws.\n\nThanks,\nJonathan\n\n[0] https://lore.kernel.org/git/CAJoAoZ=e62sceNpcR5L5zjsj177uczTnXjcAg+BbOoOkeH8vXQ@mail.gmail.com/\n> [1] https://boingboing.net/2021/05/19/freenode-irc-staff-quit-after-new-owner-seizes-control.html\n> [2] https://gist.github.com/joepie91/df80d8d36cd9d1bde46ba018af497409\n> [3] https://fuchsnet.ch/freenode-resign-letter.txt\n"},{"id":"425000","messageId":"xmqqv97ewbpx.fsf@gitster.g","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YKViF9OVLeA95JPH@google.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2021-05-19T23:22:18Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-19T23:22:21Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Jonathan Nieder <jrnieder@gmail.com> writes:\n\n> It looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to\n> https://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another\n> alternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by\n> irc.debian.org, for example.\n>\n> There are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open\n> source, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by\n> Chromium); each has its benefits and flaws.\n\nI usually refrain from suggesting us to side with anybody in a\nconfrontation that is outside our main mission, but I do not mind\nsupporting the folks who were at freenode to show appreciation for\nthe service they gave us so far, by moving to where they are now.\n\nIf all candidates offer similar level of stability and archival,\nthat is.\n\nThanks.\n"},{"id":"425054","messageId":"20210520071141.GZ8544@kitsune.suse.cz","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YKViF9OVLeA95JPH@google.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Michal Suchánek","fromEmail":"msuchanek@suse.de","sentAt":"2021-05-20T07:11:41Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-20T07:11:45Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"msuchanek@suse.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/787652?v=4"},"body":"On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 12:08:07PM -0700, Jonathan Nieder wrote:\n> Hi,\n> \n> Emily Shaffer wrote[0]:\n> \n> > Seems like there's been some kerfuffle with Freenode staff and new\n> > ownership[1][2][3]. What does this mean for Git project? I think #git\n> > on Freenode isn't maintained by Git developers directly, right?\n> \n> https://gitirc.eu/ involved a lot of work by Jan Krüger (thanks!), so\n> cc-ing him since he likely knows who else is active there.\n> \n> [...]\n> >                                                             We do\n> > theoretically keep up #git-devel on Freenode, though it's largely\n> > silent. Should we be worrying? Migrating?\n> \n> The main practical struggle on #git-devel has been spam.  I don't know\n> that any particular IRC network is better at spam prevention than\n> others.\n> \n> It looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to\n> https://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another\n> alternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by\n> irc.debian.org, for example.\n> \n> There are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open\n> source, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by\n> Chromium); each has its benefits and flaws.\n\nOr Matrix used by Mozilla, GNOME, and others.\n\nUnlike the others Matrix intends to be not just a chat application\n(opensource or proprietary) but open standard which has multiple\nimplementetions of both the server and the client.\n\nIn that way it is the most flexible option allowing communication\nbetween people with different UX preferences.\n\nThanks\n\nMichal\n"},{"id":"425135","messageId":"YKaaBj0KmJ3K5foC@coredump.intra.peff.net","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"20210520071141.GZ8544@kitsune.suse.cz","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2021-05-20T17:19:02Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-20T17:19:05Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 09:11:41AM +0200, Michal Suchánek wrote:\n\n> > It looks like most of the Freenode admins have moved to\n> > https://libera.chat/, so that would be a close equivalent.  Another\n> > alternative is OFTC <https://www.oftc.net/>, which is used by\n> > irc.debian.org, for example.\n> > \n> > There are also other real-time chat programs such as Zulip (open\n> > source, used in Outreachy), Discord (used by LLVM), and Slack (used by\n> > Chromium); each has its benefits and flaws.\n> \n> Or Matrix used by Mozilla, GNOME, and others.\n> \n> Unlike the others Matrix intends to be not just a chat application\n> (opensource or proprietary) but open standard which has multiple\n> implementetions of both the server and the client.\n> \n> In that way it is the most flexible option allowing communication\n> between people with different UX preferences.\n\nI don't have much of an opinion either way, as I do not usually use the\nirc channel at all. And my comment is perhaps more about #git than\n#git-devel.\n\nBut I would say that the decision to move to another application would\nbe one that can be made by individual people. I.e., the reason people\ncome to freenode #git to ask questions is because there are useful\npeople hanging out there who will answer them. And likewise to\n#git-devel, because that's where the people who can have useful\ndiscussions are.\n\nSo if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on\nthe Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may\nbecome a new place. And people who want to do that should let people\nknow where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to\nhttps://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the \"Community\" page).\n\nOf course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on\ntheir favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much\neasier if everybody agrees where to go. :) I think Emily's question is\nmore \"where do folks who hang out on #git-devel want to hang out now\".\nAnd that's why I say my comments are probably more relevant for #git\n(where devs don't need to coordinate as much; useful people can just\nhang out and help folks with questions).\n\n-Peff\n\nPS A lot of this may reflect my view that there is no \"official\"\nstructure for a lot of Git. We all used gmane as an archive because it\nwas the best option at the time. Then it got worse, and Eric made\npublic-inbox because it was what he wanted. And we all used it because\nit was so good. But there never needed to be any official adoption\ndecision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has\nany official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.\nNow they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily\nhave to do it as a unit.\n"},{"id":"425138","messageId":"CAJoAoZknTNNZEvGsm3fjSxsNR4ezv8z=Argj4u6cD=mVtC6E-g@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YKaaBj0KmJ3K5foC@coredump.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Emily Shaffer","fromEmail":"emilyshaffer@google.com","sentAt":"2021-05-20T18:08:33Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-20T18:08:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"nasamuffin@google.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1606826?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 10:19 AM Jeff King <peff@peff.net> wrote:\n> So if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on\n> the Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may\n> become a new place. And people who want to do that should let people\n> know where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to\n> https://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the \"Community\" page).\n\nYep, this was my point, really. git-scm and the MyFirstContribution\ndoc both have pointers to #git-devel on Freenode for now, and if we\nwant to move away we should change those.\n\nAs for where to go instead, I tend to agree with Junio's statement:\n> > > [...] I do not mind\n> > > supporting the folks who were at freenode to show appreciation for\n> > > the service they gave us so far, by moving to where they are now.\n> > >\n> > > If all candidates offer similar level of stability and archival,\n> > > that is.\n\n - Emily\n"},{"id":"425145","messageId":"xmqqwnrtt84s.fsf@gitster.g","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YKaaBj0KmJ3K5foC@coredump.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2021-05-20T21:20:19Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-20T21:20:26Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:\n\n> decision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has\n> any official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.\n> Now they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily\n> have to do it as a unit.\n\nFYI I contacted https://libera.chat/ to register \"as a project\",\nprimarily to prevent other folks squat on #git and #git-*; if we\ndecide to move our bi-weekly \"Git Standup\" there, it may turn out to\nbe useful.\n\n\n"},{"id":"425200","messageId":"YKeXSYjPFz7iBi+3@alpha","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"xmqqwnrtt84s.fsf@gitster.g","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Kevin Daudt","fromEmail":"me@ikke.info","sentAt":"2021-05-21T11:19:37Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-21T11:26:04Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"me@ikke.info","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/135698?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, May 21, 2021 at 06:20:19AM +0900, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:\n> \n> > decision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has\n> > any official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.\n> > Now they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily\n> > have to do it as a unit.\n> \n> FYI I contacted https://libera.chat/ to register \"as a project\",\n> primarily to prevent other folks squat on #git and #git-*; if we\n> decide to move our bi-weekly \"Git Standup\" there, it may turn out to\n> be useful.\n> \n> \n\nThanks. #alpine-devel has already been handed over to Jonathan Nieder,\nbut #git is not managed by anyone (no operators in the channel).\n\nFixing this would indeed require registering as a project.\n\nKevin\n"},{"id":"425229","messageId":"60a7fe0b2dd8d_558062087@natae.notmuch","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YKaaBj0KmJ3K5foC@coredump.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Felipe Contreras","fromEmail":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-21T18:38:03Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-21T18:38:07Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8358?v=4"},"body":"Jeff King wrote:\n> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on\n> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much\n> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)\n\nI don't think it works that way.\n\nI \"everybody\" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same\nwith Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't\ncome.\n\nThere's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,\nand adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many\npeople won't do.\n\n-- \nFelipe Contreras\n"},{"id":"425236","messageId":"02ab01d74e7d$acd5cbd0$06816370$@nexbridge.com","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"60a7fe0b2dd8d_558062087@natae.notmuch","subject":"RE: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Randall S. Becker","fromEmail":"rsbecker@nexbridge.com","sentAt":"2021-05-21T20:12:44Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-21T20:13:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"randall.becker@nexbridge.ca","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/28956764?v=4"},"body":"On May 21, 2021 2:38 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote:\n>Jeff King wrote:\n>> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on\n>> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much\n>> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)\n>\n>I don't think it works that way.\n>\n>I \"everybody\" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters\n>wouldn't come.\n\nHaving been on IRC for three separate rounds, with a smattering of AOL, CompuServe, HipChat, Slack, Hangouts, Messenger, SMS, Skype, Teams... I'd be surprised if a consensus is possible.  The limiting factor for most of my circle is whether connections are even possible from corporate intranets and IRC is generally blocked. For the more blocked ones, Slack and Teams tend to be more palatable (not in my opinion). We have IRC open by exemption (specifically for #git) and will close it if IRC is discontinued. It might be worth taking a poll of what people can use instead of preference. My $0.02 bet is that that is the limiting factor for the community as a whole (work from home COVID notwithstanding).\n\n>There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle, and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something\n>many people won't do.\n\nI don't know about you, but when 5 or 6 chat platforms beep at me at the same time, I start looking for the exit - or Friday afternoons. As a sideways thought, maybe we should just figure out a way to go to Zoom and be done with it (I have no affiliation).\n\nCheers,\n-Randall\n\n-- Brief whoami:\nNonStop developer since approximately 211288444200000000\nUNIX developer since approximately 421664400\nStill not talking about MVS.\n-- In my real life, I talk too much.\n\n\n\n\n"},{"id":"425583","messageId":"YK6XvmrtrdkJvsnI@nand.local","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YKaaBj0KmJ3K5foC@coredump.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Taylor Blau","fromEmail":"me@ttaylorr.com","sentAt":"2021-05-26T18:47:26Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-26T18:47:45Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"me@ttaylorr.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/301000140?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 01:19:02PM -0400, Jeff King wrote:\n> So if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on\n> the Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may\n> become a new place. And people who want to do that should let people\n> know where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to\n> https://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the \"Community\" page).\n\nEmily tweeted today [1] that the #git channel on Freenode has been taken\nover (presumably for violating their guideline that channels not mention\nLibera in their description).\n\nSo using Libera seems like a good idea (although I agree that there is\nno \"official\" place to go, and this is more about making people aware of\nthe new status-quo). In that case, here's a PR to update the \"Community\"\npage on git-scm.com:\n\n    https://github.com/git/git-scm.com/pull/1607\n\nThanks,\nTaylor\n\n[1]: https://twitter.com/nasamuffin/status/1397619871278530560\n"},{"id":"425585","messageId":"YK6o/j7P0JIGW0Q0@alpha","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YK6XvmrtrdkJvsnI@nand.local","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Kevin Daudt","fromEmail":"me@ikke.info","sentAt":"2021-05-26T20:01:02Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-26T20:01:16Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"me@ikke.info","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/135698?v=4"},"body":"On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 02:47:26PM -0400, Taylor Blau wrote:\n> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 01:19:02PM -0400, Jeff King wrote:\n> > So if there is a critical mass of useful people that will hang out on\n> > the Matrix equivalent of #git (or whatever other tool), then that may\n> > become a new place. And people who want to do that should let people\n> > know where they can be found (whatever happens, I'd appreciate a PR to\n> > https://github.com/git/git-scm.com updating the \"Community\" page).\n> \n> Emily tweeted today [1] that the #git channel on Freenode has been taken\n> over (presumably for violating their guideline that channels not mention\n> Libera in their description).\n> \n> So using Libera seems like a good idea (although I agree that there is\n> no \"official\" place to go, and this is more about making people aware of\n> the new status-quo). In that case, here's a PR to update the \"Community\"\n> page on git-scm.com:\n> \n>     https://github.com/git/git-scm.com/pull/1607\n> \n> Thanks,\n> Taylor\n> \n> [1]: https://twitter.com/nasamuffin/status/1397619871278530560\n\nWe still manage #git, but #git-devel has been deowned and redirected to\n##git-devel.\n\nIn the mean time, the ircops on libera helped us to register #git there\npending the official namespace registration from Junio (they have a\nbacklog, so they are working through that).\n\n\n"},{"id":"425596","messageId":"875yz5m5hd.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"60a7fe0b2dd8d_558062087@natae.notmuch","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","fromEmail":"avarab@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-26T23:35:21Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-26T23:37:41Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"avarab@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45301?v=4"},"body":"\nOn Fri, May 21 2021, Felipe Contreras wrote:\n\n> Jeff King wrote:\n>> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on\n>> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much\n>> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)\n>\n> I don't think it works that way.\n>\n> I \"everybody\" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same\n> with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't\n> come.\n>\n> There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,\n> and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many\n> people won't do.\n\nIn the case of IRC though there's many IRC-to-X gateways that allow you\nto somewhat have your cake and eat it too, e.g. there's one for\ndiscord[1].\n\nI haven't tried it, but I use another channel that has an\nirc-to-Telegram (the app) gateway[2]. It works quite well. Aside from\nthe Freenode v.s. Librechat question I wonder if there'd be interest in\nhaving such a thing running for #git or #git-devel.\n\n1. https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc\n2. https://github.com/FruitieX/teleirc\n"},{"id":"425601","messageId":"60aee0dc3a6b0_75dc20855@natae.notmuch","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"875yz5m5hd.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Felipe Contreras","fromEmail":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-26T23:59:24Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-26T23:59:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8358?v=4"},"body":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n> \n> On Fri, May 21 2021, Felipe Contreras wrote:\n> \n> > Jeff King wrote:\n> >> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on\n> >> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much\n> >> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)\n> >\n> > I don't think it works that way.\n> >\n> > I \"everybody\" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same\n> > with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't\n> > come.\n> >\n> > There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,\n> > and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many\n> > people won't do.\n> \n> In the case of IRC though there's many IRC-to-X gateways that allow you\n> to somewhat have your cake and eat it too, e.g. there's one for\n> discord[1].\n\nI have tried some of them, they don't quite cut it for me.\n\n> I haven't tried it, but I use another channel that has an\n> irc-to-Telegram (the app) gateway[2]. It works quite well. Aside from\n> the Freenode v.s. Librechat question I wonder if there'd be interest in\n> having such a thing running for #git or #git-devel.\n\nI think that would be very nice (if it works correctly).\n\n-- \nFelipe Contreras"},{"id":"425640","messageId":"YK7mzXItolJqvjNr@danh.dev","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"875yz5m5hd.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Đoàn Trần Công Danh","fromEmail":"congdanhqx@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-27T00:24:45Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-27T00:24:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"congdanhqx@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/42673067?v=4"},"body":"On 2021-05-27 01:35:21+0200, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> wrote:\n> \n> On Fri, May 21 2021, Felipe Contreras wrote:\n> \n> > Jeff King wrote:\n> >> Of course there's value in coordinating. Everybody _can_ hang out on\n> >> their favorite venues and eventually talk to each other, but it's much\n> >> easier if everybody agrees where to go. :)\n> >\n> > I don't think it works that way.\n> >\n> > I \"everybody\" agrees to move to Discord, many old-timers won't. Same\n> > with Gitter. And if most people were on IRC, many youngsters wouldn't\n> > come.\n> >\n> > There's a limit to how many chat applications you are willing juggle,\n> > and adding one more just to chat with git developers is something many\n> > people won't do.\n> \n> In the case of IRC though there's many IRC-to-X gateways that allow you\n> to somewhat have your cake and eat it too, e.g. there's one for\n> discord[1].\n> \n> I haven't tried it, but I use another channel that has an\n> irc-to-Telegram (the app) gateway[2]. It works quite well. Aside from\n> the Freenode v.s. Librechat question I wonder if there'd be interest in\n> having such a thing running for #git or #git-devel.\n\nFWIW, Matrix also runs a bridge for IRC. There're existing bridges\nfor freenode and OFTC. And, a new bridge for libera is WIP.\n\n> \n> 1. https://github.com/reactiflux/discord-irc\n> 2. https://github.com/FruitieX/teleirc\n\n-- \nDanh\n"},{"id":"425696","messageId":"7e9683aee2c0fea2ff77b82bfa547e15@jk.gs","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YK6o/j7P0JIGW0Q0@alpha","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Jan Krüger","fromEmail":"jk@jk.gs","sentAt":"2021-05-27T17:18:17Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-27T17:23:24Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jk@jk.gs","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1774?v=4"},"body":"Here's a bit of an update on the situation.\n\nfreenode has, indeed, scorched the earth by destroying more than 700\nchannels, simply for mentioning Libera in the topic (before they even\nadded a rule that forbids this). I was willing to wait and see how the\n\"new\" freenode was going to pan out, but with stuff like this happening\nI don't see that as an option anymore. Basically I expect freenode to\nkeep destroying community with no prior notice whenever they feel like\nit, and who wants to stay in a place like that?\n\nOn 26.05.2021 22:01, Kevin Daudt wrote:\n\n> In the mean time, the ircops on libera helped us to register #git there\n> pending the official namespace registration from Junio (they have a\n> backlog, so they are working through that).\n\n#git on Libera is already picking up steam, though the numbers aren't\nquite on the same level yet. However, an arbitrary quorum of regulars \nhas\ndecided that it's time to throw the switch.\n\n* We've moved the gitinfo bot to Libera (which required a fair bit of\n   code rewriting to support the differences between their respective\n   ircds);\n* The IRC logger has moved;\n* The old channel's topic has a link to https://gitirc.eu/fnmove.html\n   which explains the situation.\n\nI expect that if anyone from freenode staff notices this, the channel\non freenode will get destroyed soon after...\n"},{"id":"425712","messageId":"87im33ltqr.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"7e9683aee2c0fea2ff77b82bfa547e15@jk.gs","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","fromEmail":"avarab@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-27T21:54:32Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-27T22:03:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"avarab@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45301?v=4"},"body":"\nOn Thu, May 27 2021, Jan Krüger wrote:\n\n> Here's a bit of an update on the situation.\n>\n> freenode has, indeed, scorched the earth by destroying more than 700\n> channels, simply for mentioning Libera in the topic (before they even\n> added a rule that forbids this). I was willing to wait and see how the\n> \"new\" freenode was going to pan out, but with stuff like this happening\n> I don't see that as an option anymore. Basically I expect freenode to\n> keep destroying community with no prior notice whenever they feel like\n> it, and who wants to stay in a place like that?\n\nHow have the channels been destroyed?\n\nI'm still joined on freenode and #git has ~700ish users and the\nliberachat one has ~300ish as I write this.\n\nI see there was a mass action to revert topics that stated that channels\nhad moved, but e.g. #git@freenode still has active discussion about git,\namong other things.\n\n> On 26.05.2021 22:01, Kevin Daudt wrote:\n>\n>> In the mean time, the ircops on libera helped us to register #git there\n>> pending the official namespace registration from Junio (they have a\n>> backlog, so they are working through that).\n>\n> #git on Libera is already picking up steam, though the numbers aren't\n> quite on the same level yet. However, an arbitrary quorum of regulars\n> has\n> decided that it's time to throw the switch.\n>\n> * We've moved the gitinfo bot to Libera (which required a fair bit of\n>   code rewriting to support the differences between their respective\n>   ircds);\n> * The IRC logger has moved;\n> * The old channel's topic has a link to https://gitirc.eu/fnmove.html\n>   which explains the situation.\n>\n> I expect that if anyone from freenode staff notices this, the channel\n> on freenode will get destroyed soon after...\n\nI agree that ~300/~700 is quite the arbitrary quorum :)\n\nI'm not going to weigh in on whatever pissing contest is going on over\nat Freenode and related networks other than to say that it seems to me\nthat the goal(s) of the new owner/team or whatever is to try to prevent\nsome mass adversiting of the nature of \"this network is\ndeprecated\". \"Destroying\" prominent channels seems to be\nconterproductive to that goal.\n\nIn any case, I agree with Jeff King's earlier comments that our primary\ngoal here should not be to pick sides, but to direct our users to useful\nvenues where they can get help, discuss git etc.\n\nI don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in\norder to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard\nand is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick\nbetween the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising\n#git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like\nuseful venues for git users to go to get help.\n"},{"id":"425724","messageId":"60b046dd3f5f2_40592208df@natae.notmuch","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"87im33ltqr.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Felipe Contreras","fromEmail":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-28T01:26:53Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-28T01:26:58Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8358?v=4"},"body":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n\n> I don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in\n> order to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard\n> and is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick\n> between the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising\n> #git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like\n> useful venues for git users to go to get help.\n\nAgreed.\n\nThe primary purpose of an IRC channel should be to help users, and if\nright now the person that could help a user is on freenode, so be it.\n\nIf the people with some political alignment want to emphasize\nLiberaChat, that's fine, but keep mentioning freenode.\n\n-- \nFelipe Contreras"},{"id":"425726","messageId":"YLBJJEQEUW8MVJm8@nand.local","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"60b046dd3f5f2_40592208df@natae.notmuch","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Taylor Blau","fromEmail":"me@ttaylorr.com","sentAt":"2021-05-28T01:36:36Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-28T01:36:41Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"me@ttaylorr.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/301000140?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 08:26:53PM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:\n> Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n>\n> > I don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in\n> > order to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard\n> > and is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick\n> > between the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising\n> > #git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like\n> > useful venues for git users to go to get help.\n>\n> Agreed.\n>\n> The primary purpose of an IRC channel should be to help users, and if\n> right now the person that could help a user is on freenode, so be it.\n>\n> If the people with some political alignment want to emphasize\n> LiberaChat, that's fine, but keep mentioning freenode.\n\ngit-scm.com was updated recently to mention LiberaChat instead of\nFreenode [1]. That was done to reflect the reality of [2]. I suspect that\nwill have been the right decision, but in case it isn't (and there are\nstill people hanging around in #git on Freenode), then I'd be in favor\nof mentioning both.\n\nFor what it's worth, I also do not care about the Freenode versus Libera\n(or vice-versa?) debacle. That said, I do think having one central place\nfor people to hang out is better than two (if for no other reason than\n  it's fewer places to check or go to if you want help), but I would be\n  fine if the status-quo were that there is an active #git channel on\n  both Libera and Freenode.\n\nThanks,\nTaylor\n\n[1]: https://github.com/git/git-scm.com/pull/1608\n[2]: https://lore.kernel.org/git/7e9683aee2c0fea2ff77b82bfa547e15@jk.gs/\n"},{"id":"425730","messageId":"60b0638618044_49b58208a4@natae.notmuch","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"YLBJJEQEUW8MVJm8@nand.local","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Felipe Contreras","fromEmail":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-05-28T03:29:10Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-28T03:29:15Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8358?v=4"},"body":"Taylor Blau wrote:\n> On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 08:26:53PM -0500, Felipe Contreras wrote:\n> > Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n> >\n> > > I don't see why we'd advertise #git@liberachat and not #git@freenode in\n> > > order to achieve that goal, the latter doesn't seem to be a graveyard\n> > > and is probably still more active. I don't see why we'd need to pick\n> > > between the two, any more than we'd pick between advertising\n> > > #git@liberachat and the git-users mailing list. Both currently seem like\n> > > useful venues for git users to go to get help.\n> >\n> > Agreed.\n> >\n> > The primary purpose of an IRC channel should be to help users, and if\n> > right now the person that could help a user is on freenode, so be it.\n> >\n> > If the people with some political alignment want to emphasize\n> > LiberaChat, that's fine, but keep mentioning freenode.\n> \n> git-scm.com was updated recently to mention LiberaChat instead of\n> Freenode [1]. That was done to reflect the reality of [2]. I suspect\n> that will have been the right decision, but in case it isn't (and\n> there are still people hanging around in #git on Freenode), then I'd\n> be in favor of mentioning both.\n\nAs of this moment (2021-05-27T22:20:00-0500) there's 324 people on\nLibera.Chat, and 762 on freenode.\n\nSo yeah... I'd say there are still people hanging around in #git on\nfreenode.\n\n> For what it's worth, I also do not care about the Freenode versus\n> Libera (or vice-versa?) debacle. That said, I do think having one\n> central place for people to hang out is better than two (if for no\n> other reason than it's fewer places to check or go to if you want\n> help), but I would be fine if the status-quo were that there is an\n> active #git channel on both Libera and Freenode.\n\nSure, one would be better than two, but rarely can we pick the reality\nthat is better... Reality just is.\n\nCheers.\n\n-- \nFelipe Contreras"},{"id":"425747","messageId":"b8e48d464858c0ef6da2629dab507ebc@jk.gs","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"87im33ltqr.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Jan Krüger","fromEmail":"jk@jk.gs","sentAt":"2021-05-28T08:00:41Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-28T08:01:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jk@jk.gs","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1774?v=4"},"body":"On 27.05.2021 23:54, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n> How have the channels been destroyed?\n> \n> I'm still joined on freenode and #git has ~700ish users\n\n#git was not affected, but many others were, including #git-devel...\n\n> I see there was a mass action to revert topics that stated that \n> channels\n> had moved\n\nIf that was all that had happened, I would totally agree. Unfortunately,\nthey did quite a bit more than that. They made a script that\nautomatically ran the following actions on channels that mentioned\n\"libera\" in the topic:\n\n* sent a vague message about a ToS violation to the channel;\n* dropped the registration, including the full access list;\n* set the channel to moderated;\n* removed all ops;\n* set an auto-forward to a similarly named topic channel (e.g.\n   #git-devel forwarded to ##git-devel);\n* made no attempt to give control of the topic channel to the previous\n   community, i.e. the new channel would usually end up completely\n   op-less and thus impossible to register at all. If it had been\n   squatted by unrelated people beforehand, it would stay in their\n   control.\n\nThis is equivalent to utter destruction in my view. #git was only not\naffected because our message in the topic did not mention Libera by\nname. Now of course we could just consider ourselves lucky and move on,\nbut personally I am deeply suspicious of a team that will do this kind\nof thing seemingly on a whim, without even letting anyone know in\nadvance that this was considered a violation. Who knows what else they\nare going to do on a whim in the future?\n\n> I agree that ~300/~700 is quite the arbitrary quorum :)\n\nI misspoke - it was an arbitrary quorum of the people who spend a lot of\ntime being active in #git, i.e. the people who are the most responsible\nfor keeping the channel alive. And the decision wasn't about killing the\nfreenode channel anyway...\n\n> I'm not going to weigh in on whatever pissing contest is going on over\n> at Freenode and related networks other than to say that it seems to me\n> that the goal(s) of the new owner/team or whatever is to try to prevent\n> some mass adversiting of the nature of \"this network is\n> deprecated\". \"Destroying\" prominent channels seems to be\n> conterproductive to that goal.\n\nAnd yet that is what they did.\n\n> In any case, I agree with Jeff King's earlier comments that our primary\n> goal here should not be to pick sides, but to direct our users to \n> useful\n> venues where they can get help, discuss git etc.\n\nSure... but several of us spoke about this and none of the particularly\nactive regulars I talked to want to keep being active on freenode\nindefinitely. This will likely have effects on how active each channel\nwill be. Right now, several of us are still answering questions on\nfreenode, and nobody has made any attempt to shut down the channel\nthere. If it gets shut down, it will not be due to our actions. Maybe\ndue to our inaction, but even then there's nothing stopping others from\nkeeping the channel going.\n\nI've updated my little page about this whole issue, to clarify that the\nfreenode channel is not closed or anything - but I feel like it's\nrelevant that several of the most active people intend on moving away\nfrom it, and so I think it still makes sense leaving that message out\nthere. If it turns out that there is a significant fraction of active\n\"helpers\" that intend to stay on freenode, I'll update again to reflect\nthat.\n"},{"id":"425803","messageId":"87k0niapmq.fsf@vps.thesusis.net","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"b8e48d464858c0ef6da2629dab507ebc@jk.gs","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Phillip Susi","fromEmail":"phill@thesusis.net","sentAt":"2021-05-28T14:37:36Z","receivedAt":"2021-05-28T14:39:59Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"phill@thesusis.net","avatar":null},"body":"\nJan Krüger writes:\n\n> If that was all that had happened, I would totally agree. Unfortunately,\n> they did quite a bit more than that. They made a script that\n> automatically ran the following actions on channels that mentioned\n> \"libera\" in the topic:\n>\n> * sent a vague message about a ToS violation to the channel;\n> * dropped the registration, including the full access list;\n> * set the channel to moderated;\n> * removed all ops;\n> * set an auto-forward to a similarly named topic channel (e.g.\n>    #git-devel forwarded to ##git-devel);\n> * made no attempt to give control of the topic channel to the previous\n>    community, i.e. the new channel would usually end up completely\n>    op-less and thus impossible to register at all. If it had been\n>    squatted by unrelated people beforehand, it would stay in their\n>    control.\n\nOh wow.  That's crossing a line for me.\n\n\n"},{"id":"429035","messageId":"87wnq8ap2n.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"xmqqwnrtt84s.fsf@gitster.g","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","fromEmail":"avarab@gmail.com","sentAt":"2021-07-02T12:15:10Z","receivedAt":"2021-07-02T12:16:54Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"avarab@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45301?v=4"},"body":"\nOn Fri, May 21 2021, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> Jeff King <peff@peff.net> writes:\n>\n>> decision. Likewise for irc. I don't think #git or even #git-devel has\n>> any official status. It is simply where people doing things chose to go.\n>> Now they may choose to go somewhere else, but they don't necessarily\n>> have to do it as a unit.\n>\n> FYI I contacted https://libera.chat/ to register \"as a project\",\n> primarily to prevent other folks squat on #git and #git-*; if we\n> decide to move our bi-weekly \"Git Standup\" there, it may turn out to\n> be useful.\n\nI don't know if it was formally decided, but it seems the standup is in\nfact happening on liberachat recently. Could you update the calendar\nentry in your \"Git\" calendar[1] to s/irc.freenode.org/irc.libera.chat/g?\n\n1. https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=jfgbl2mrlipp4pb6ieih0qr3so%40group.calendar.google.com\n"},{"id":"429057","messageId":"xmqq35swrb8g.fsf@gitster.g","threadId":"55736","inReplyTo":"87wnq8ap2n.fsf@evledraar.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Should we do something with #git-devel on Freenode?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2021-07-02T15:23:11Z","receivedAt":"2021-07-02T15:23:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> writes:\n\n> I don't know if it was formally decided, but it seems the standup is in\n> fact happening on liberachat recently. Could you update the calendar\n> entry in your \"Git\" calendar[1] to s/irc.freenode.org/irc.libera.chat/g?\n>\n> 1. https://calendar.google.com/calendar/embed?src=jfgbl2mrlipp4pb6ieih0qr3so%40group.calendar.google.com\n\nWill do.\n\nI'll also add you to the editors of that calendar (Thomas Gummerer\nhas been a helping editor, now I'll volunteer you as well ;-)\n"}]}