{"thread":{"id":"53691","subject":"git-for-windows supporting public shaming and repressing community's opinion","startedAt":"2020-06-16T19:28:18Z","lastAt":"2020-06-16T21:44:40Z","messageCount":3,"participants":["Kaue Doretto Grecchi","Elijah Newren","Jeff King"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"399934","messageId":"CAMWmj-w3Z4176kvNi3GQTfCSDBzMMay33ki4xmdPwC3sFqbdzA@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"53691","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"git-for-windows supporting public shaming and repressing community's opinion","fromName":"Kaue Doretto Grecchi","fromEmail":"kauedg@gmail.com","sentAt":"2020-06-16T19:28:03Z","receivedAt":"2020-06-16T19:28:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"kauedg@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"Recently I've been blocked from the git-for-windows Github repository\nbecause of this\n(https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-643795833)\ncomment. At the same time the following user was not blocked and his\ncomment hasn't been marked \"off-topic\" until the issue was closed to\n\"only collaborators\" due to the high rate of people disagreeing with\nthe motivations of the issue.\n\n(https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-642049938)\n\n> mlvzk 6 days ago\n>\n> Agreed. On a side note, GitHub should maintain a repository with a list of developers that still\n> use the master/slave terminology. Perhaps that'd be enough of an incentive for some to change - > name and shame!\n> We could also have an icon on their profile page that'd flag them as dangerous.\n\nIt is appalling that the repo's maintainers kept this comment and\nallowed the user to continue interacting, while suppressing and\nblocking users who were on-topic, having a civil, respectful\ndiscussion but happened to disagree with the issue's author (dscho -\nhttps://github.com/dscho) reasons.\n\nI am sending this message in the git mailing list because the\ngit-for-windows project is very closely related to it and because I\nwasn't even able to defend myself there.\n\nI don't even want to be unblocked from that repo, as this is the way\nthings are done there. But all of you should know what's happening and\nbe aware that \"community\" doesn't mean what it once used to. Now it's\njust \"people who agree with PC reasons for doing stuff\".\n"},{"id":"399936","messageId":"CABPp-BEGtYky=9JNu9ZTdqC6dCww6AkO5vn+vUohQP9MFnkfDg@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"53691","inReplyTo":"CAMWmj-w3Z4176kvNi3GQTfCSDBzMMay33ki4xmdPwC3sFqbdzA@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-for-windows supporting public shaming and repressing community's opinion","fromName":"Elijah Newren","fromEmail":"newren@gmail.com","sentAt":"2020-06-16T20:15:18Z","receivedAt":"2020-06-16T20:15:36Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"newren@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/5455730?v=4"},"body":"On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:30 PM Kaue Doretto Grecchi <kauedg@gmail.com> wrote:\n>\n> Recently I've been blocked from the git-for-windows Github repository\n> because of this\n> (https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-643795833)\n\nMost your comment looks fine to me, but this part clearly was not:\n\n    \"So your argument is really dull and kind of childish.\"\n\nI'm not part of git-for-windows, but I'd likely also start blocking\npeople when name calling starts, so I can't fault them for it.  I\ndon't know what their process is for unblocking people if they amend\ntheir ways or after a cool-down period or whatever, so I can't really\ncomment further.\n\n> comment. At the same time the following user was not blocked and his\n> comment hasn't been marked \"off-topic\" until the issue was closed to\n> \"only collaborators\" due to the high rate of people disagreeing with\n> the motivations of the issue.\n>\n> (https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-642049938)\n>\n> > mlvzk 6 days ago\n> >\n> > Agreed. On a side note, GitHub should maintain a repository with a list of developers that still\n> > use the master/slave terminology. Perhaps that'd be enough of an incentive for some to change - > name and shame!\n> > We could also have an icon on their profile page that'd flag them as dangerous.\n\nI agree with you that this comment looks like it should have been\nmarked off-topic earlier and seems problematic.  It does avoid being\ndirectly disrespectful and thus might not technically violate the code\nof conduct, but I am definitely not a fan of their trying to suggest\nthat other folks should violate it (their suggestion seems to be that\nGitHub should do things that would not fit with using welcoming and\ninclusive language, or being respectful of differing viewpoints and\nexperiences, or showing empathy to other community members, or assume\nthe best intentions, etc.).\n\n> It is appalling that the repo's maintainers kept this comment and\n> allowed the user to continue interacting, while suppressing and\n> blocking users who were on-topic, having a civil, respectful\n> discussion but happened to disagree with the issue's author (dscho -\n> https://github.com/dscho) reasons.\n\nJust my own guess here, but I think calling others' arguments \"dull\nand kind of childish\" is not civil or respectful, and thus that you\nmissed the reasons for your being blocked.\n\n\nHope that helps,\nElijah\n"},{"id":"399939","messageId":"20200616214437.GA685107@coredump.intra.peff.net","threadId":"53691","inReplyTo":"CAMWmj-w3Z4176kvNi3GQTfCSDBzMMay33ki4xmdPwC3sFqbdzA@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-for-windows supporting public shaming and repressing community's opinion","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2020-06-16T21:44:37Z","receivedAt":"2020-06-16T21:44:40Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 04:28:03PM -0300, Kaue Doretto Grecchi wrote:\n\n> Recently I've been blocked from the git-for-windows Github repository\n> because of this\n> (https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-643795833)\n> comment. At the same time the following user was not blocked and his\n> comment hasn't been marked \"off-topic\" until the issue was closed to\n> \"only collaborators\" due to the high rate of people disagreeing with\n> the motivations of the issue.\n> \n> (https://github.com/git-for-windows/git/issues/2674#issuecomment-642049938)\n\nFirst off, I think it's important to separate the two comments.\n\nIf a comment is violating the CoC, or is insulting, unconstructive, etc,\nthen it's grounds for being marked as such and hidden. Even if somebody\nis saying or doing something worse, that still does not excuse bad\nbehavior.\n\nOf course it's perfectly fine to say \"this other comment is violating the\nCoC, and please deal with it\" as appropriate. But \"the person I was\narguing with was also behaving badly\" should never be grounds for\njustifying poor behavior.\n\nSo taking your comment on its own for a moment (I'll post it here\nbecause the direct links don't seem to actually open blocked comments):\n\n> > Nobody's telling you what you can or cannot say.\n> \n> Read the whole sentence. \"IF we take the reasoning away\"*. And that's\n> what is being done here, reducing a word to one shallow dualistic\n> political meaning even though it has other suitable and acceptable\n> meanings. It's just one statement away.\n> \n> I don't really care about the branch's name, I care about the reason the change is being made.\n> \n> if ... then constructs shouldn't be a problem here.\n> \n> > The Git terminology is derived from BitKeeper. Yes, it's a\n> > master-slave metaphor.\n> > But even if it wasn't, ultimately it doesn't matter. \"Cock\" is the\n> > accepted term for a male bird, but you'd probably be wary of using\n> > it in your project name, right?\n> \n> Well there is a product called \"Bengay\" which has nothing to do with\n> \"gay\"... just to name one. So your argument is really dull and kind of\n> childish.\n> \n> But even if it wasn't, ultimately it doesn't matter.\n> \n> That's all folks.\n\nI think the problem is in the second half. Calling the other person's\nargument dull and childish is inflammatory and unproductive.\n\nOn another topic, in another thread, it's possible that this comment\nmight not even have been called out. But in an issue thread which was\nrapidly becoming heated and deteriorating in the quality of the\ncommunication (by many people), I think it's important for people to be\ndoubly careful about their communication style. I find it hard to fault\nthe Git for Windows maintainers for blocking comments that were\ncontributing to the degrading atmosphere.\n\nI do notice you've also been blocked from the project. AFAICT the hiding\nof comments and the blocking of people happened more or less at the same\ntime (from the perspective of the commenters). IMHO it would be nice to\nbe given some feedback along the lines of \"this isn't an appropriate\ncommunication style for this forum\" to give people the opportunity to\nadjust their behavior before being banned. If that's the case here, I'd\nbe in support of giving banned users an opportunity to contribute\nconstructively.\n\nOn to the other comment:\n\n> > mlvzk 6 days ago\n> >\n> > Agreed. On a side note, GitHub should maintain a repository with a list of developers that still\n> > use the master/slave terminology. Perhaps that'd be enough of an incentive for some to change - > name and shame!\n> > We could also have an icon on their profile page that'd flag them as dangerous.\n\nI agree this is a harmful comment. We should be able to discuss the\nissue in an honest manner without fear of reprisals.\n\nHowever, that comment _also_ seems to have been marked as off-topic and\nhidden. In addition, several people responded directly to the comment\nand explained why it wasn't acceptable. Some of those were in turn\nhidden, because they were also inflammatory. But I think this response\nfrom Philip gets to the heart of it:\n\n   PhilipOakley 6 days ago\n   > On 10/06/2020 15:33, mlvzk wrote:\n   > - name and shame!\n   Unfortunately that approach would be a vicious circle, rather than a\n   virtuous circle of improvement. It can be a form of bullying.\n\n   Let's keep this work positive and supportive.\n\n> It is appalling that the repo's maintainers kept this comment and\n> allowed the user to continue interacting, while suppressing and\n> blocking users who were on-topic, having a civil, respectful\n> discussion but happened to disagree with the issue's author (dscho -\n> https://github.com/dscho) reasons.\n\nI'm open to the notion that a maintainer is abusing their power and\nsilencing dissent under the guise of the CoC. But I don't really see\nevidence of that here.\n\n> I am sending this message in the git mailing list because the\n> git-for-windows project is very closely related to it and because I\n> wasn't even able to defend myself there.\n> \n> I don't even want to be unblocked from that repo, as this is the way\n> things are done there. But all of you should know what's happening and\n> be aware that \"community\" doesn't mean what it once used to. Now it's\n> just \"people who agree with PC reasons for doing stuff\".\n\nOK. Thank you for making us aware of your viewpoint. It sounds like\nthere's no specific action you're asking to be taken, so I'll leave it\nat this response for now.\n\n-Peff\n"}]}