{"thread":{"id":"47066","subject":"future of the mediawiki extension?","startedAt":"2017-10-30T03:00:50Z","lastAt":"2017-11-07T15:12:50Z","messageCount":10,"participants":["Antoine Beaupré","Matthieu Moy","Junio C Hamano"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"331321","messageId":"87vaix731f.fsf@curie.anarc.at","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Antoine Beaupré","fromEmail":"anarcat@debian.org","sentAt":"2017-10-30T03:00:44Z","receivedAt":"2017-10-30T03:00:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"anarcat@debian.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/796623?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nFirst thanks for the excellent feedback regarding the mediawiki\nextension, it's great that obscure extensions like this see such\nexcellent reviews.\n\nI think, however, it would be good to have a discussion about the future\nof that extension in Git. The extension has a bit of a hybrid presence -\nit is partly in git core (as a contrib, but still) and partly on GitHub\nhere:\n\nhttps://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/\n\nThis leads to some confusion as to where the changes should be\nmade. Some people make changes straight on GitHub by forking the above\nrepo, others fork the Git repo, and very few actually send the patches\nhere, on this mailing list.\n\nThere was a discussion last year about moving the module out of git core\nand onto its own repository again:\n\nhttps://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/issues/34\n\nThere is also a discussion on releasing the code to CPAN:\n\nhttps://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/issues/18\n\nIt should also be mentioned that this contrib isn't very active: I'm not\npart of the GitHub organization, yet I'm probably the one that's been\nthe most active with patches in the last year (and I wasn't very active\nat all). There's an issue on GitHub about this as well:\n\nhttps://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/issues/33\n\nSo, what should be done about this contrib? Should it stay in Git core?\nOr should it be punted back to the community and managed on GitHub?\n\nPlease avoid \"mailing list vs GitHub\" flamewars and keep to the topic of\nthis specific contrib's future. :)\n\nThanks!\n\nA.\n\nPS: personally, I don't care much either way. It certainly seem that I\nget way better feedback here than I previously got on GitHub, but that\ncould be because of the hybrid way things are setup in the first\nplace...\n-- \nTo punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.\n                       - Albert Einstein\n"},{"id":"331337","messageId":"q7h9o9opyllo.fsf@orange.lip.ens-lyon.fr","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"87vaix731f.fsf@curie.anarc.at","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Matthieu Moy","fromEmail":"git@matthieu-moy.fr","sentAt":"2017-10-30T10:29:55Z","receivedAt":"2017-10-30T10:30:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"git@matthieu-moy.fr","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/14709?v=4"},"body":"[ Please Cc: me in these discussions ]\n\nAntoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:\n\n> I think, however, it would be good to have a discussion about the future\n> of that extension in Git. The extension has a bit of a hybrid presence -\n> it is partly in git core (as a contrib, but still) and partly on GitHub\n> here:\n>\n> https://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/\n\nThe initial plan was to use Git's contrib/ subdirectory to get more of\nthe Git community involved in its development, and avoid making it a\npersonal toy.\n\nInitially, Git-Mediawiki is both a personnal project and a student's\nproject (most of the code was written by students as part of an Ensimag\nproject under my supervision, with strong interaction with the Git\ncommunity).\n\nIt did work well in the first times of the project, there were very\nfruitfull interactions between Git-Mediawiki and Git. Some issues raised\nwhile developing Git-Mediawiki led to improvements in the remote-helper\nmechanism in Git. Some code written for Git-Mediawiki ended up in Git\n(the Perl layer for the credential helpers at least). I think this would\nhave been harder if Git-Mediawiki was a separte project.\n\nHowever, the rest of the plan did not work that well. I thought having\nthe code in contrib/ would help keeping the project alive if I became\ninactive. It's been a while I didn't have enough time-budget to work on\nthe project, and the git.git review mechanism has actually blocked a lot\nof contributors. Patches get posted here and there but no one takes time\nfor a proper submission here, and when this happens contributors give up\nafter the first round of review instead of re-rolling.\n\nSo, my conclusion is that a simpler submission mechanism (GitHub's\npull-requests) and a less picky code review would help Git-Mediawiki.\n\nFrom previous discussions, I think Junio will agree with that: he's\nreluctant to keeping too much stuff in contrib/ and usally prefers\nexternal projects.\n\n> It should also be mentioned that this contrib isn't very active: I'm not\n> part of the GitHub organization, yet I'm probably the one that's been\n> the most active with patches in the last year (and I wasn't very active\n> at all).\n\nFYI, I'm no longer using Mediawiki as much as I did, and I don't really\nuse Git-Mediawiki anymore.\n\nThe main blocking point to revive Git-Mediawiki is to find a new\nmaintainer (https://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/issues/33). I\nbelieve I just found one ;-).\n\n> Please avoid \"mailing list vs GitHub\" flamewars and keep to the topic of\n> this specific contrib's future. :)\n\nNote that being a separate project doesn't mean there can't be any\ninteraction with this list. Requests for reviews for separate projects\nare usually welcome even though they don't happen often here.\n\nThere's also a hybrid solution used by git-multimail: have a copy of the\ncode in git.git, but do the development separately. I'm not sure it'd be\na good idea for Git-Mediawiki, but I'm mentionning it for completeness.\n\nRegards,\n\n-- \nMatthieu Moy\nhttps://matthieu-moy.fr/\n"},{"id":"331344","messageId":"87mv487rc6.fsf@curie.anarc.at","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"q7h9o9opyllo.fsf@orange.lip.ens-lyon.fr","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Antoine Beaupré","fromEmail":"anarcat@debian.org","sentAt":"2017-10-30T12:28:09Z","receivedAt":"2017-10-30T12:28:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"anarcat@debian.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/796623?v=4"},"body":"On 2017-10-30 11:29:55, Matthieu Moy wrote:\n>> It should also be mentioned that this contrib isn't very active: I'm not\n>> part of the GitHub organization, yet I'm probably the one that's been\n>> the most active with patches in the last year (and I wasn't very active\n>> at all).\n>\n> FYI, I'm no longer using Mediawiki as much as I did, and I don't really\n> use Git-Mediawiki anymore.\n>\n> The main blocking point to revive Git-Mediawiki is to find a new\n> maintainer (https://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/issues/33). I\n> believe I just found one ;-).\n\nEh. I assume you mean me here. As I hinted at in another thread, I am\nnot sure I can commit to leading the project - just scratching an\nitch. But I may be able to review pull requests and make some releases\nfrom time to time... I probably won't work on code or features I don't\nneed unless someone funds my work or something. ;)\n\nWe'll see where the community takes us, I guess... Always better to have\nmore than one maintainer, anyways, just for the bus factor... Worst\ncase, I'll delegate to a worthy successor. :)\n\nA.\n\n-- \nVotre silence ne vous protégera pas.\n                        - Audrey Lorde\n"},{"id":"331436","messageId":"xmqqh8ug3xnq.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"q7h9o9opyllo.fsf@orange.lip.ens-lyon.fr","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-10-31T01:37:29Z","receivedAt":"2017-10-31T01:37:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Matthieu Moy <git@matthieu-moy.fr> writes:\n\n> So, my conclusion is that a simpler submission mechanism (GitHub's\n> pull-requests) and a less picky code review would help Git-Mediawiki.\n>\n> From previous discussions, I think Junio will agree with that: he's\n> reluctant to keeping too much stuff in contrib/ and usally prefers\n> external projects.\n>\n> Note that being a separate project doesn't mean there can't be any\n> interaction with this list. Requests for reviews for separate projects\n> are usually welcome even though they don't happen often here.\n\nI would say that Git and its ecosystem has become mature enough that\nany add-on project that aims to make life more pleasant for those\nwho use Git and $X together for any value of $X can now stand on its\nown, without being under Git umbrella like back in the days when the\nnumber of people who know and/or use Git were small.  The world is\nno longer constrained by small number of people with Git expertise,\nand it has become practical to discuss their project among those who\nare familiar with (and motivated to learn) *both* Git and $X without\nnecessarily involving Git 'core' people.\n\nParticipants of this list will continue to strive to keep this list\nthe place for people to come for Git expertise.  But this list may\nno longer be the best place to find those who are experts on *both*\nGit and $X.  And that is why I think an external project standing on\nits own would be more preferrable these days.\n\n> There's also a hybrid solution used by git-multimail: have a copy of the\n> code in git.git, but do the development separately. I'm not sure it'd be\n> a good idea for Git-Mediawiki, but I'm mentionning it for completeness.\n\nI think the plan was to make code drop from time to time at major\nrelease points of git-multimail, but I do not think we've seen many\nupdates recently.\n"},{"id":"331439","messageId":"874lqg83u9.fsf@curie.anarc.at","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"xmqqh8ug3xnq.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Antoine Beaupré","fromEmail":"anarcat@debian.org","sentAt":"2017-10-31T02:10:22Z","receivedAt":"2017-10-31T02:10:31Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"anarcat@debian.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/796623?v=4"},"body":"On 2017-10-31 10:37:29, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>> There's also a hybrid solution used by git-multimail: have a copy of the\n>> code in git.git, but do the development separately. I'm not sure it'd be\n>> a good idea for Git-Mediawiki, but I'm mentionning it for completeness.\n>\n> I think the plan was to make code drop from time to time at major\n> release points of git-multimail, but I do not think we've seen many\n> updates recently.\n\nI'd be okay with a hybrid as well. It would require minimal work on\nGit's side at this stage: things can just stay as is until there's a new\n\"release\" of the mediawiki extension and at that point you can decide if\nyou merge it all in or if you drop it in favor of the contrib.\n\nI think it's also fine to punt it completely out to the community.\n\nEither way, I may have time to do some of that work in the coming month,\nso let me know what you prefer, I guess you two have the last word\nhere. The community, on Mediawiki's side, seem to mostly favor GitHub.\n\nA.\n\n-- \nNever attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by\nstupidity, but don't rule out malice.\n                         - Albert Einstein\n"},{"id":"331452","messageId":"xmqqh8uf28m2.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"87mv487rc6.fsf@curie.anarc.at","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-10-31T05:23:49Z","receivedAt":"2017-10-31T05:23:59Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:\n\n> On 2017-10-30 11:29:55, Matthieu Moy wrote:\n>>> It should also be mentioned that this contrib isn't very active: I'm not\n>>> part of the GitHub organization, yet I'm probably the one that's been\n>>> the most active with patches in the last year (and I wasn't very active\n>>> at all).\n>>\n>> FYI, I'm no longer using Mediawiki as much as I did, and I don't really\n>> use Git-Mediawiki anymore.\n>>\n>> The main blocking point to revive Git-Mediawiki is to find a new\n>> maintainer (https://github.com/Git-Mediawiki/Git-Mediawiki/issues/33). I\n>> believe I just found one ;-).\n>\n> Eh. I assume you mean me here. As I hinted at in another thread, I am\n> not sure I can commit to leading the project - just scratching an\n> itch. But I may be able to review pull requests and make some releases\n> from time to time... I probably won't work on code or features I don't\n> need unless someone funds my work or something. ;)\n>\n> We'll see where the community takes us, I guess... Always better to have\n> more than one maintainer, anyways, just for the bus factor... Worst\n> case, I'll delegate to a worthy successor. :)\n\nHeh, when you are talking about going from effectively 0 to 1 (or a\nhalftime), you are way too early to worry about the bus factor ;-)\n\n"},{"id":"331955","messageId":"xmqq7ev2j4to.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"874lqg83u9.fsf@curie.anarc.at","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-11-07T00:44:03Z","receivedAt":"2017-11-07T00:44:12Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:\n\n> On 2017-10-31 10:37:29, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>>> There's also a hybrid solution used by git-multimail: have a copy of the\n>>> code in git.git, but do the development separately. I'm not sure it'd be\n>>> a good idea for Git-Mediawiki, but I'm mentionning it for completeness.\n>>\n>> I think the plan was to make code drop from time to time at major\n>> release points of git-multimail, but I do not think we've seen many\n>> updates recently.\n>\n> I'd be okay with a hybrid as well. It would require minimal work on\n> Git's side at this stage: things can just stay as is until there's a new\n> \"release\" of the mediawiki extension and at that point you can decide if\n> you merge it all in or if you drop it in favor of the contrib.\n>\n> I think it's also fine to punt it completely out to the community.\n>\n> Either way, I may have time to do some of that work in the coming month,\n> so let me know what you prefer, I guess you two have the last word\n> here. The community, on Mediawiki's side, seem to mostly favor GitHub.\n\nI guess I shouldn't leave this thread hanging.\n\nAs contrib/README says, the \"owners\" of an area in contrib/ has the\nultimate say and control over the area, and for contrib/mw-to-git,\nthe \"owners\" have always been Matthieu, at least to me.\n\nAs he made it clear earlier in this thread that (1) he sees you as a\nsteady hand that can help guide the tool forward as its new \"owner\",\nand (2) he thinks Git-Mediawiki will be helped by being an\nindependent project hosted at GitHub, now you have the say ;-)\n\nA few topics from you that are already on list may want to go\nthrough to 'master' as any other topics, but from there on, I am\nfine with the development of Git-Mediawiki primarily done as a\nseparate project, optionally giving contrib/mw-to-git/ occasional\nupdate dumps.  You could even choose to remove contrib/mw-to-git/*\nexcept for git-remote-mediawiki.txt that says that the tool's main\ndevelopment effort happens at GitHub to redirect people, if you\nthink that would reduce potential confusion.\n\nI am also OK to serve as a patch monkey and keep going; I won't be\npicking up patches to contrib/mw-to-git/ unless you (and others)\nreview them, though.\n"},{"id":"331966","messageId":"87vaim3jhz.fsf@curie.anarc.at","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"xmqq7ev2j4to.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Antoine Beaupré","fromEmail":"anarcat@debian.org","sentAt":"2017-11-07T02:33:44Z","receivedAt":"2017-11-07T02:33:54Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"anarcat@debian.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/796623?v=4"},"body":"On 2017-11-07 09:44:03, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Antoine Beaupré <anarcat@debian.org> writes:\n>\n>> On 2017-10-31 10:37:29, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>>>> There's also a hybrid solution used by git-multimail: have a copy of the\n>>>> code in git.git, but do the development separately. I'm not sure it'd be\n>>>> a good idea for Git-Mediawiki, but I'm mentionning it for completeness.\n>>>\n>>> I think the plan was to make code drop from time to time at major\n>>> release points of git-multimail, but I do not think we've seen many\n>>> updates recently.\n>>\n>> I'd be okay with a hybrid as well. It would require minimal work on\n>> Git's side at this stage: things can just stay as is until there's a new\n>> \"release\" of the mediawiki extension and at that point you can decide if\n>> you merge it all in or if you drop it in favor of the contrib.\n>>\n>> I think it's also fine to punt it completely out to the community.\n>>\n>> Either way, I may have time to do some of that work in the coming month,\n>> so let me know what you prefer, I guess you two have the last word\n>> here. The community, on Mediawiki's side, seem to mostly favor GitHub.\n>\n> I guess I shouldn't leave this thread hanging.\n>\n> As contrib/README says, the \"owners\" of an area in contrib/ has the\n> ultimate say and control over the area, and for contrib/mw-to-git,\n> the \"owners\" have always been Matthieu, at least to me.\n>\n> As he made it clear earlier in this thread that (1) he sees you as a\n> steady hand that can help guide the tool forward as its new \"owner\",\n> and (2) he thinks Git-Mediawiki will be helped by being an\n> independent project hosted at GitHub, now you have the say ;-)\n>\n> A few topics from you that are already on list may want to go\n> through to 'master' as any other topics, but from there on, I am\n> fine with the development of Git-Mediawiki primarily done as a\n> separate project, optionally giving contrib/mw-to-git/ occasional\n> update dumps.  You could even choose to remove contrib/mw-to-git/*\n> except for git-remote-mediawiki.txt that says that the tool's main\n> development effort happens at GitHub to redirect people, if you\n> think that would reduce potential confusion.\n>\n> I am also OK to serve as a patch monkey and keep going; I won't be\n> picking up patches to contrib/mw-to-git/ unless you (and others)\n> review them, though.\n\nMakes sense. I think that, for now, I'll keep some sort of status quo\nand \"copy\" (as opposed to \"move\") development over to GitHub. We can\nthen make dumps when new releases are done over there. If that proves\nimpractical because of changes in the build system or some other reason,\nI'll send patches to clear the code from core and replace it with the\nsuggested .txt file.\n\nThanks!\n\nA.\n\n-- \nLike slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and\nit can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human\nbeings. Overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act\nof justice.             - Nelson Mandela\n"},{"id":"331980","messageId":"158227903.238854.1510040782947.JavaMail.zimbra@matthieu-moy.fr","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"xmqqh8ug3xnq.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Matthieu Moy","fromEmail":"git@matthieu-moy.fr","sentAt":"2017-11-07T07:46:22Z","receivedAt":"2017-11-07T07:46:34Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"git@matthieu-moy.fr","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/14709?v=4"},"body":"\"Junio C Hamano\" <gitster@pobox.com> wrote:\n\n> I think the plan was to make code drop from time to time at major\n> release points of git-multimail, but I do not think we've seen many\n> updates recently.\n\nI realize I didn't answer this point. The reason you didn't see any\nupdate recently is just that there haven't been any release and\nactually not much development for a while on git-multimail.\n\nI still have a list of \"would be nice to have\" features, but it seems\nusers are essentially happy with git-multimail as it is (or at least,\naren't unhappy enough to send patches or discuss interesting issues),\nI haven't received any bug report or pull-requests for a long time.\n\nBut I still do maintain git-multimail and I will continue updating it\nin git.git.\n\n-- \nMatthieu Moy\nhttps://matthieu-moy.fr/\n"},{"id":"332000","messageId":"xmqqefpadswj.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"47066","inReplyTo":"158227903.238854.1510040782947.JavaMail.zimbra@matthieu-moy.fr","subject":"Re: future of the mediawiki extension?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-11-07T15:12:44Z","receivedAt":"2017-11-07T15:12:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Matthieu Moy <git@matthieu-moy.fr> writes:\n\n> I realize I didn't answer this point. The reason you didn't see any\n> update recently is just that there haven't been any release and\n> actually not much development for a while on git-multimail.\n\nThat is perfectly fine.\n\n> I still have a list of \"would be nice to have\" features, but it seems\n> users are essentially happy with git-multimail as it is (or at least,\n> aren't unhappy enough to send patches or discuss interesting issues),\n> I haven't received any bug report or pull-requests for a long time.\n>\n> But I still do maintain git-multimail and I will continue updating it\n> in git.git.\n"}]}