{"thread":{"id":"46228","subject":"","startedAt":"2017-06-22T10:08:37Z","lastAt":"2017-06-23T18:44:39Z","messageCount":14,"participants":["Jessie Hernandez","Simon Ruderich","Patrick Lehmann","Junio C Hamano","Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","Jeff King","demerphq"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"322917","messageId":"7c277ac1cfb40b9b362d468a94dfb4fe.squirrel@mail.jessiehernandez.com","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"","fromName":"Jessie Hernandez","fromEmail":"git@jessiehernandez.com","sentAt":"2017-06-22T09:50:01Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T10:08:37Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"git@jessiehernandez.com","avatar":null},"body":"subscribe git\n\n\n\n"},{"id":"322926","messageId":"20170622124803.45sduodpfbwuuq52@ruderich.org","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"7c277ac1cfb40b9b362d468a94dfb4fe.squirrel@mail.jessiehernandez.com","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Simon Ruderich","fromEmail":"simon@ruderich.org","sentAt":"2017-06-22T12:48:03Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T12:50:28Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"simon@ruderich.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/390994?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:50:01AM +0200, Jessie Hernandez wrote:\n> subscribe git\n\nYou need to write to majordomo@vger.kernel.org (with subscribe\ngit in the body) to subscribe.\n\nRegards\nSimon\n-- \n+ privacy is necessary\n+ using gnupg http://gnupg.org\n+ public key id: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9\n"},{"id":"322927","messageId":"0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A3D5@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"20170622124803.45sduodpfbwuuq52@ruderich.org","subject":"AW: your mail","fromName":"Patrick Lehmann","fromEmail":"patrick.lehmann@plc2.de","sentAt":"2017-06-22T13:35:33Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T13:35:40Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"patrick.lehmann@plc2.de","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/861fc81252f222aa3db2b3f869cde9d2a4759bd96bc31b40d01a1609a9e7d559?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription?\nIs this a security bug or is he already subscribed?\n________________________________________\nVon: git-owner@vger.kernel.org [git-owner@vger.kernel.org]" im Auftrag von "Simon Ruderich [simon@ruderich.org]\nGesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2017 14:48\nBis: Jessie Hernandez\nCc: git@vger.kernel.org\nBetreff: Re: your mail\n\nOn Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:50:01AM +0200, Jessie Hernandez wrote:\n> subscribe git\n\nYou need to write to majordomo@vger.kernel.org (with subscribe\ngit in the body) to subscribe.\n\nRegards\nSimon\n--\n+ privacy is necessary\n+ using gnupg http://gnupg.org\n+ public key id: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9\n"},{"id":"322928","messageId":"20170622134708.fcc4zxakga6p255x@ruderich.org","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A3D5@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Simon Ruderich","fromEmail":"simon@ruderich.org","sentAt":"2017-06-22T13:47:08Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T13:47:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"simon@ruderich.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/390994?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:35:33PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:\n> But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription?\n> Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed?\n\nEverybody can send to this mailing list. This is by design so\ncontributors/bug reporters can send mails without having to\nsubscribe.\n\nRegards\nSimon\n-- \n+ Privatsphäre ist notwendig\n+ Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org\n+ Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9\n"},{"id":"322929","messageId":"0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A423@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"20170622134708.fcc4zxakga6p255x@ruderich.org","subject":"AW: your mail","fromName":"Patrick Lehmann","fromEmail":"patrick.lehmann@plc2.de","sentAt":"2017-06-22T13:55:27Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T13:55:44Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"patrick.lehmann@plc2.de","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/861fc81252f222aa3db2b3f869cde9d2a4759bd96bc31b40d01a1609a9e7d559?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.\n\na)\nIt explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.\nb)\nIt describes how to subscribe.\n\nWith knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),\nsubscription is required for participation.\n\n________________________________________\nVon: Simon Ruderich [simon@ruderich.org]\nGesendet: Donnerstag, 22. Juni 2017 15:47\nBis: Patrick Lehmann\nCc: Jessie Hernandez; git@vger.kernel.org\nBetreff: Re: your mail\n\nOn Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:35:33PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:\n> But how can he write to the mailing list without a subscription?\n> Is this a security bug or is he already subscribed?\n\nEverybody can send to this mailing list. This is by design so\ncontributors/bug reporters can send mails without having to\nsubscribe.\n\nRegards\nSimon\n--\n+ Privatsphäre ist notwendig\n+ Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org\n+ Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9\n"},{"id":"322992","messageId":"20170622204628.eintlap4uchlncub@ruderich.org","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"0092CDD27C5F9D418B0F3E9B5D05BE080102A423@SBS2011.opfingen.plc2.de","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Simon Ruderich","fromEmail":"simon@ruderich.org","sentAt":"2017-06-22T20:46:29Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T20:46:51Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"simon@ruderich.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/390994?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:\n> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.\n>\n> a)\n> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.\n> b)\n> It describes how to subscribe.\n\nHowever it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only\nhow to subscribe.\n\n> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),\n> subscription is required for participation.\n\nThat depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to\nprevent spams but not all do.\n\nSomebody might want to update the documentation, but personally\nI see no reason to change anything. If you want to send a patch\nto improve it, that would be great of course.\n\nRegards\nSimon\n\nPS: Please don't top-post on this mailing list.\n-- \n+ Privatsphäre ist notwendig\n+ Ich verwende GnuPG http://gnupg.org\n+ Öffentlicher Schlüssel: 0x92FEFDB7E44C32F9\n"},{"id":"322997","messageId":"xmqq8tkjiu3d.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"20170622204628.eintlap4uchlncub@ruderich.org","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-06-22T21:35:34Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T21:35:41Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Simon Ruderich writes:\n\n> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:\n>> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.\n>>\n>> a)\n>> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.\n>> b)\n>> It describes how to subscribe.\n>\n> However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only\n> how to subscribe.\n\nFor that matter, we also say \"everyone is welcome to post\", which\nmakes it clear that no subscription is required.\n\nBut I view these merely being technically correct. And making it\nabsolutely obvious does not cost too much.\n\n>> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),\n>> subscription is required for participation.\n>\n> That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to\n> prevent spams but not all do.\n\nYes. But not many people realize that the world they know is the\nonly world. We are used to an open list and are shocked when we\nencouter a closed one; let's not forget that shock.\n\nHow about doing it like this?\n\n README.md | 4 ++++\n 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)\n\ndiff --git a/README.md b/README.md\nindex f17af66a97..bbaf54bffb 100644\n--- a/README.md\n+++ b/README.md\n@@ -31,6 +31,10 @@ The user discussion and development of Git take place on the Git\n mailing list -- everyone is welcome to post bug reports, feature\n requests, comments and patches to git@vger.kernel.org (read\n [Documentation/SubmittingPatches][] for instructions on patch submission).\n+\n+You can send messages without subscribing to the list, but it is \n+recommended to read what other people are saying on the list before\n+you speak.\n To subscribe to the list, send an email with just \"subscribe git\" in\n the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are\n available at ,\n"},{"id":"323005","messageId":"878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"xmqq8tkjiu3d.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","fromEmail":"avarab@gmail.com","sentAt":"2017-06-22T21:58:08Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T21:58:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"avarab@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45301?v=4"},"body":"\nOn Thu, Jun 22 2017, Junio C. Hamano jotted:\n\n> Simon Ruderich writes:\n>\n>> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:55:27PM +0000, Patrick Lehmann wrote:\n>>> The description on https://github.com/git/git doesn't reflect that policy.\n>>>\n>>> a)\n>>> It explains that discussions take place in the mentioned mailing list.\n>>> b)\n>>> It describes how to subscribe.\n>>\n>> However it doesn't say that you have to subscribe to send, only\n>> how to subscribe.\n>\n> For that matter, we also say \"everyone is welcome to post\", which\n> makes it clear that no subscription is required.\n>\n> But I view these merely being technically correct. And making it\n> absolutely obvious does not cost too much.\n>\n>>> With knowledge of other mailing lists (mostly managed by mailman),\n>>> subscription is required for participation.\n>>\n>> That depends on the mailing list, some require subscription to\n>> prevent spams but not all do.\n>\n> Yes. But not many people realize that the world they know is the\n> only world. We are used to an open list and are shocked when we\n> encouter a closed one; let's not forget that shock.\n>\n> How about doing it like this?\n>\n> README.md | 4 ++++\n> 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+)\n>\n> diff --git a/README.md b/README.md\n> index f17af66a97..bbaf54bffb 100644\n> --- a/README.md\n> +++ b/README.md\n> @@ -31,6 +31,10 @@ The user discussion and development of Git take place on the Git\n> mailing list -- everyone is welcome to post bug reports, feature\n> requests, comments and patches to git@vger.kernel.org (read\n> [Documentation/SubmittingPatches][] for instructions on patch submission).\n> +\n> +You can send messages without subscribing to the list, but it is\n> +recommended to read what other people are saying on the list before\n> +you speak.\n> To subscribe to the list, send an email with just \"subscribe git\" in\n> the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are\n> available at ,\n\nIt's unclear what that means. I *think* it means \"consider taking a look\naround the list before you post\", but then it's probably better advice\nto tell people to skim the archives first to get an idea of the traffic.\n\nE.g. if I page through the first 2 pages of public-inbox.org I get\nmessages going back to the 19th, but if I were to subscribe to the list\nI'd need to wait 4 days to get the same mail.\n\nWhich, in the context of what this follows (how to submit a bug,\nquestions etc.) isn't a good use of time for the person reading the\ninstructions.\n\nMaybe something more like:\n\ndiff --git a/README.md b/README.md\nindex f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644\n--- a/README.md\n+++ b/README.md\n@@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are\n available at ,\n and other archival sites.\n\n+You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and\n+others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some\n+forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be\n+sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in\n+the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.\n+\n The maintainer frequently sends the \"What's cooking\" reports that\n list the current status of various development topics to the mailing\n list. The discussion following them give a good reference for\n"},{"id":"323010","messageId":"xmqqr2ybhdpa.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-06-22T22:14:57Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T22:15:04Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason writes:\n\n> Maybe something more like:\n\nMuch better.\n\n> diff --git a/README.md b/README.md\n> index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644\n> --- a/README.md\n> +++ b/README.md\n> @@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are\n> available at ,\n> and other archival sites.\n>\n> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and\n> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some\n> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be\n> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in\n> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.\n> +\n> The maintainer frequently sends the \"What's cooking\" reports that\n> list the current status of various development topics to the mailing\n> list. The discussion following them give a good reference for\n"},{"id":"323019","messageId":"20170622232156.vptuoafdtglokujw@sigill.intra.peff.net","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2017-06-22T23:21:56Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-22T23:22:07Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 11:58:08PM +0200, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n\n> Which, in the context of what this follows (how to submit a bug,\n> questions etc.) isn't a good use of time for the person reading the\n> instructions.\n> \n> Maybe something more like:\n> \n> diff --git a/README.md b/README.md\n> index f17af66a97..dc175757fa 100644\n> --- a/README.md\n> +++ b/README.md\n> @@ -36,6 +36,12 @@ the body to majordomo@vger.kernel.org. The mailing list archives are\n> available at ,\n> and other archival sites.\n> \n> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and\n> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some\n> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be\n> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in\n> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.\n> +\n> The maintainer frequently sends the \"What's cooking\" reports that\n> list the current status of various development topics to the mailing\n> list. The discussion following them give a good reference for\n\nYou perhaps already read it, but you may want to steal wording or\nsuggestions from the mailing list section at:\n\n https://git-scm.com/community\n\nwhich is covering the same ideas (and vice versa, patches to that page\nare welcome if the README says something better).\n\n-Peff\n"},{"id":"323057","messageId":"xmqqshirffay.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"20170622232156.vptuoafdtglokujw@sigill.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-06-23T05:23:17Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-23T05:23:26Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Jeff King writes:\n\n>> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and\n>> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some\n>> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be\n>> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in\n>> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.\n>> +\n>> The maintainer frequently sends the \"What's cooking\" reports that\n>> list the current status of various development topics to the mailing\n>> list. The discussion following them give a good reference for\n>\n> You perhaps already read it, but you may want to steal wording or\n> suggestions from the mailing list section at:\n>\n> https://git-scm.com/community\n>\n> which is covering the same ideas (and vice versa, patches to that page\n> are welcome if the README says something better).\n\nOK, so... Ævar's version does not mention:\n\n - text/plain, which is a very good addition.\n\n - note about CC in a way as useful as the \"community\" page does,\n which may want to steal from the latter.\n\n - the archive, but it may not be needed in the context of this\n document. \"Read the archive to make sure you are not repeating\n somebody else said before speaking\" is something we silently wish\n everybody to follow, but it is something we do not want to say\n out loud, especially to new people.\n\n - Windows, but I am not sure if it is necessary or even healthy.\n One thing I would rather not to see is the Windows mailing list\n becomes the first line triage place for any and all issues that\n were experienced by a user who happened to be using Windows, and\n majority of the issues turn out to be unspecific to Windows. I'd\n suspect that all of us rather would want to see the referral go\n the other way around.\n\nOtoh, \"community\" page does not encourage subscription as a way to\nensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to\nadd.\n\nA tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the \"community\"\npage:\n\n The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to\n subscribe.\n\nOf course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for\npublic-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related.\n\nPerhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer\nexplanation taken from Ævar's version:\n\n\t... disable HTML in your outgoing messages.\n\n\tBy subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not\n\tmissing follow-up discussion and also learn from other\n\tdevelopment in the community. The list archive can be found\n\ton public-inbox.\n\n"},{"id":"323060","messageId":"CANgJU+Um-2CLDYYsS=acJ5udc8M2Wr9KSL3PuGAYpda0WaMmxw@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"878tkjk7m7.fsf@gmail.com","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"demerphq","fromEmail":"demerphq@gmail.com","sentAt":"2017-06-23T06:58:55Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-23T06:59:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"demerphq@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On 22 June 2017 at 23:58, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n\n> +You don't need to be subscribed to the list to send mail to it, and\n> +others on-list will generally CC you when replying (although some\n> +forget this). It's adviced to subscribe to the list if you want to be\n\nFWIW: \"adviced\" is misspelled, it should be \"advised\", and IMO, it\nfeels like poor style to begin a sentence with a contraction. Not\nstrictly wrong, but sufficiently informal that I think it is out of\nplace in docs like this. Better to just say \"It is\", or even just \"You\nare\", especially as you use \"you\" later in the sentence.\n\nI actually think simplifying that sentence considerably is preferable:\n\n\"To be sure you receive all follow-up mails you should subscribe to the list.\"\n\nflows better and is more succinct than\n\n\"It's advised to subscribe to the list if you want to be sure you're\nnot missing follow-up discussion\".\n\n> +sure you're not missing follow-up discussion, or if your interest in\n> +the project is wider than a one-off bug report, question or patch.\n\ncheers,\nyves\n\n-- \nperl -Mre=debug -e \"/just|another|perl|hacker/\"\n"},{"id":"323113","messageId":"20170623165347.s6byszwdps34ntzv@sigill.intra.peff.net","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"xmqqshirffay.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2017-06-23T16:53:48Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-23T16:54:03Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:23:17PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> Otoh, \"community\" page does not encourage subscription as a way to\n> ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to\n> add.\n> \n> A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the \"community\"\n> page:\n> \n> The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to\n> subscribe.\n> \n> Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for\n> public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related.\n> \n> Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer\n> explanation taken from Ævar's version:\n> \n> \t... disable HTML in your outgoing messages.\n> \n> \tBy subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not\n> \tmissing follow-up discussion and also learn from other\n> \tdevelopment in the community. The list archive can be found\n> \ton public-inbox.\n\nYeah, I think that's a good suggestion. Do you want to phrase it in the\nform of a patch? :)\n\n-Peff\n"},{"id":"323120","messageId":"xmqqvanmee7j.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"46228","inReplyTo":"20170623165347.s6byszwdps34ntzv@sigill.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: your mail","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-06-23T18:44:32Z","receivedAt":"2017-06-23T18:44:39Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Jeff King writes:\n\n> On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 10:23:17PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>\n>> Otoh, \"community\" page does not encourage subscription as a way to\n>> ensure you'll see follow-up discussion, which may be a good thing to\n>> add.\n>> \n>> A tangent I just found funny is this paragraph on the \"community\"\n>> page:\n>> \n>> The archive can be found on public-inbox. Click here to\n>> subscribe.\n>> \n>> Of course clicking does not take you to a subscription page for\n>> public-inbox, even though the two sentences appear to be related.\n>> \n>> Perhaps swap the order of the two, like so, with a bit richer\n>> explanation taken from Ævar's version:\n>> \n>> \t... disable HTML in your outgoing messages.\n>> \n>> \tBy subscribing (click here), you can make sure you're not\n>> \tmissing follow-up discussion and also learn from other\n>> \tdevelopment in the community. The list archive can be found\n>> \ton public-inbox.\n>\n> Yeah, I think that's a good suggestion. Do you want to phrase it in the\n> form of a patch? :)\n\nOK. Letme try.\n"}]}