{"thread":{"id":"45891","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","startedAt":"2017-05-06T17:46:20Z","lastAt":"2017-05-09T10:11:11Z","messageCount":15,"participants":["Jonathan Tirado","Samuel Lijin","Eric Wong","Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","Junio C Hamano","Johannes Schindelin","Brandon Williams"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"318938","messageId":"v26esrmyqyqykypjs75fx2vy.1494092763967@email.android.com","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Jonathan Tirado","fromEmail":"tiradojonathan32@gmail.com","sentAt":"2017-05-06T17:46:03Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-06T17:46:20Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tiradojonathan32@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":""},{"id":"318939","messageId":"CAJZjrdWYDMFHRrbeFk89p+GebLpWJBUQfnpC6w87aVh8czL5_w@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"v26esrmyqyqykypjs75fx2vy.1494092763967@email.android.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Samuel Lijin","fromEmail":"sxlijin@gmail.com","sentAt":"2017-05-06T18:23:00Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-06T18:23:46Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"sxlijin@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/01777bf1eae64e2b4dca97dcac182a6abbcf6fd8cb4d5b8fa33edf9f8cc21746?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Yep, I see these on public-inbox.org/git/ but not in my gmail inbox:\n\n- Brandon [RFC 01/14] through [RFC 14/14] convert dir.c to take an\nindex parameter\n- Johanne's Coverity patch series\n"},{"id":"318951","messageId":"20170506205041.GA26189@starla","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"CAJZjrdWYDMFHRrbeFk89p+GebLpWJBUQfnpC6w87aVh8czL5_w@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Eric Wong","fromEmail":"e@80x24.org","sentAt":"2017-05-06T20:50:41Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-06T20:50:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"e@80x24.org","avatar":null},"body":"(I have no idea what Jonathan Tirado wrote; it was encrypted (but\n sent to a public list).\n\nSamuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n> Yep, I see these on public-inbox.org/git/ but not in my gmail inbox:\n\nHi Samuel, check your Spam box (and move it to a normal inbox so\nthey can train it).  Gmail filters are known to trigger happy\nand incorrectly flag messages.  It's been a problem on LKML,\ntoo.\n\n> - Brandon [RFC 01/14] through [RFC 14/14] convert dir.c to take an\n> index parameter\n\nIronically, Brandon is a Google employee and Gmail seems to not\nlike his messages.  The only flag I see from SpamAssassin in\npublic-inbox is HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS which happens to\nevery message because it's relayed via kernel.org\n\nMaybe Brandon can escalate this internally in Google...\n\n(OTOH, I noticed a thread/mbox download bug in public-inbox,\nhttps://public-inbox.org/git/xmqqmvaq702u.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com/t.mbox.gz\nonly shows two messages out of many.   Will need to fix that...)\n\n> - Johanne's Coverity patch series\n\nLikewise, but he also uses freemail domain (nothing wrong with\nthat, but it raises one flag on SA).  I noticed at least one\nof his did trigger the RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM in SpamAssassin, but that's\na common problem with all freemail providers (including Gmail).\n\n\nAnyways, I'm glad the SpamAssassin seems to be working well on\npublic-inbox and would be grateful to know if there's false\npositives and missing messages.\n\nOne of the major reasons I started public-inbox was because I\nlack faith in my ability to run my little list server (with\nmlmmj or mailman) and be able to successfully relay to the big\nproviders.  Anyways, I'm glad it's helping readers of git@vger,\ntoo :)\n"},{"id":"318952","messageId":"CACBZZX42rhmrq8z0u1aRXw87oT22YywwnaFHUMjDYgtE_i56nw@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"20170506205041.GA26189@starla","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason","fromEmail":"avarab@gmail.com","sentAt":"2017-05-06T21:05:54Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-06T21:06:21Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"avarab@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45301?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:\n> (I have no idea what Jonathan Tirado wrote; it was encrypted (but\n>  sent to a public list).\n>\n> Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n>> Yep, I see these on public-inbox.org/git/ but not in my gmail inbox:\n>\n> Hi Samuel, check your Spam box (and move it to a normal inbox so\n> they can train it).  Gmail filters are known to trigger happy\n> and incorrectly flag messages.  It's been a problem on LKML,\n> too.\n>\n>> - Brandon [RFC 01/14] through [RFC 14/14] convert dir.c to take an\n>> index parameter\n>\n> Ironically, Brandon is a Google employee and Gmail seems to not\n> like his messages.  The only flag I see from SpamAssassin in\n> public-inbox is HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS which happens to\n> every message because it's relayed via kernel.org\n>\n> Maybe Brandon can escalate this internally in Google...\n>\n> (OTOH, I noticed a thread/mbox download bug in public-inbox,\n> https://public-inbox.org/git/xmqqmvaq702u.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com/t.mbox.gz\n> only shows two messages out of many.   Will need to fix that...)\n>\n>> - Johanne's Coverity patch series\n>\n> Likewise, but he also uses freemail domain (nothing wrong with\n> that, but it raises one flag on SA).  I noticed at least one\n> of his did trigger the RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM in SpamAssassin, but that's\n> a common problem with all freemail providers (including Gmail).\n>\n>\n> Anyways, I'm glad the SpamAssassin seems to be working well on\n> public-inbox and would be grateful to know if there's false\n> positives and missing messages.\n>\n> One of the major reasons I started public-inbox was because I\n> lack faith in my ability to run my little list server (with\n> mlmmj or mailman) and be able to successfully relay to the big\n> providers.  Anyways, I'm glad it's helping readers of git@vger,\n> too :)\n\nThanks a lot for public-inbox, my only problem with it is that it\ndoesn't cover every single mailing list I'm on, just git :)\n\nAre you or someone else maintaining some ancillary scripts for it? I\nprobably need to fix my patch workflow but my usual mode is browsing\nin GMail & then manually 'git am'-ing some file I find with git-log\ncommands.\n\nI have one to git am a patch from a msgid, thought I should write\nsomething to handle a series in some DWIM fashion (e.g. apply the\nlatest continuous sequence of patches matching --author) but figured\nthat someone's probably wrote this already & I don't need to hack it\nup myself...\n"},{"id":"318953","messageId":"CAJZjrdXPgrSAHJPsQiW756XFK1-XyGY0skJTefczaqJpOy6yKQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"20170506205041.GA26189@starla","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Samuel Lijin","fromEmail":"sxlijin@gmail.com","sentAt":"2017-05-06T21:10:02Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-06T21:10:48Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"sxlijin@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/01777bf1eae64e2b4dca97dcac182a6abbcf6fd8cb4d5b8fa33edf9f8cc21746?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:\n> (I have no idea what Jonathan Tirado wrote; it was encrypted (but\n>  sent to a public list).\n>\n> Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n>> Yep, I see these on public-inbox.org/git/ but not in my gmail inbox:\n>\n> Hi Samuel, check your Spam box (and move it to a normal inbox so\n> they can train it).  Gmail filters are known to trigger happy\n> and incorrectly flag messages.  It's been a problem on LKML,\n> too.\n\nSorry, should've been clearer - I did check my spambox in my original\nmessage. Some old patches from Brandon were in there, but the ones I\nmentioned in my original message just seem to have been dropped.\n"},{"id":"318954","messageId":"20170506214223.GA28534@starla","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"CACBZZX42rhmrq8z0u1aRXw87oT22YywwnaFHUMjDYgtE_i56nw@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Eric Wong","fromEmail":"e@80x24.org","sentAt":"2017-05-06T21:42:23Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-06T21:42:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"e@80x24.org","avatar":null},"body":"Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> wrote:\n> Thanks a lot for public-inbox, my only problem with it is that it\n> doesn't cover every single mailing list I'm on, just git :)\n\nYes, I'm hoping more folks can start running their own\ninstances.  I notice you're on p5p where I started to\noccasionally lurk a few years back.  Is that something you'd be\ninteresting in mirroring? :)\n\nSome lists I'm involved in tend to be centralized\n(reply-to-list, not reply-to-all); so UI changes will be needed\nin public-inbox...\n\n> Are you or someone else maintaining some ancillary scripts for it? I\n> probably need to fix my patch workflow but my usual mode is browsing\n> in GMail & then manually 'git am'-ing some file I find with git-log\n> commands.\n\nNot really.  I started out ssoma(*) just for archival/mirroring,\nbut it's mostly forgotten at this point.  I would rather people\nbuild on existing protocols like NNTP.\n\n> I have one to git am a patch from a msgid, thought I should write\n> something to handle a series in some DWIM fashion (e.g. apply the\n> latest continuous sequence of patches matching --author) but figured\n> that someone's probably wrote this already & I don't need to hack it\n> up myself...\n\nI've been meaning to wire up the web search to allow downloading\nan entire mbox worth of search results.  But it could be a bit\nexpensive for some queries and there needs to be a limit.  The\ncurrent limit for web display is too small; so maybe 1000\nmessages per-mbox at a time to avoid DoS-ing the server.\n\n(*) some-sort-of-mail archiver: git clone git://80x24.org/ssoma\n"},{"id":"319015","messageId":"20170507032417.GA7838@dcvr","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"xmqqfugh74mn.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Eric Wong","fromEmail":"e@80x24.org","sentAt":"2017-05-07T03:24:17Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-07T22:09:33Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"e@80x24.org","avatar":null},"body":"Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com> wrote:\n> As it is a pain to access gmail inbox via imap (I was told that\n> something called \"offline imap\" may alleviate the pain, but I\n> haven't tried it yet),\n\nofflineimap isn't bad; I've been using it since 2003-2004\nand can say it's easier-to-setup and more reliable than\nisync/mbsync, especially with not-so-great \"IMAP\" servers.\n\nofflineimap also has specific examples in the docs for Gmail's\nweird IMAP interface.  My main complaints about it are high memory\nusage and slowness.\n\n> I tend to use NNTP interface to either gmane\n> or public-inbox almost exclusively, so like everybody else, it often\n> takes a message hours before I see it due to this throttling.  I do\n> not see the message I am responding to on public-inbox, and I am\n> responding to the copy I got direct from you, for example.\n\nLooks like vger is down, my mail server can't make connections\nto it on port 25 at all.  Good thing we have a reply-to-all\nconvention here :)\n"},{"id":"319016","messageId":"20170507124158.GA15706@starla","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"20170506205041.GA26189@starla","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Eric Wong","fromEmail":"e@80x24.org","sentAt":"2017-05-07T12:41:58Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-07T22:09:41Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"e@80x24.org","avatar":null},"body":"Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> wrote:\n> (OTOH, I noticed a thread/mbox download bug in public-inbox,\n> https://public-inbox.org/git/xmqqmvaq702u.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com/t.mbox.gz\n> only shows two messages out of many.   Will need to fix that...)\n\nI think I fixed that bug, at least:\nhttps://public-inbox.org/meta/20170507110328.GA20102@whir/\n\nAnd vger is still down...\n"},{"id":"319017","messageId":"20170507010537.GA21703@starla","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"CAJZjrdXPgrSAHJPsQiW756XFK1-XyGY0skJTefczaqJpOy6yKQ@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Eric Wong","fromEmail":"e@80x24.org","sentAt":"2017-05-07T01:05:37Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-07T22:14:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"e@80x24.org","avatar":null},"body":"Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n> Sorry, should've been clearer - I did check my spambox in my original\n> message. Some old patches from Brandon were in there, but the ones I\n> mentioned in my original message just seem to have been dropped.\n\nApparently, vger also throttles mail to gmail aggressively, so\nmaybe some show up eventually:\n\nhttps://marc.info/?i=20170501.105057.824365162373797902.davem@davemloft.net\n\n\n\nOn a side note, I just started trying the \"mutt-patched\"\npackage in Debian stable.  It looks like \"mutt\" package will\nabsorb it's functionality in future releases, but maybe more\nmutt users can have NNTP support in their favorite MUA :)\n"},{"id":"319022","messageId":"20170507002630.GA15897@starla","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"CAJZjrdXPgrSAHJPsQiW756XFK1-XyGY0skJTefczaqJpOy6yKQ@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Eric Wong","fromEmail":"e@80x24.org","sentAt":"2017-05-07T00:26:30Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-07T22:44:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"e@80x24.org","avatar":null},"body":"Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n> > Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n> >> Yep, I see these on public-inbox.org/git/ but not in my gmail inbox:\n> >\n> > Hi Samuel, check your Spam box (and move it to a normal inbox so\n> > they can train it).  Gmail filters are known to trigger happy\n> > and incorrectly flag messages.  It's been a problem on LKML,\n> > too.\n> \n> Sorry, should've been clearer - I did check my spambox in my original\n> message. Some old patches from Brandon were in there, but the ones I\n> mentioned in my original message just seem to have been dropped.\n\nYikes.  I wonder if Gmail automatically nukes messages if\nthey end up in enough Spam boxes...  Really hoping Googlers\ncan do something about this (or better, more people start\nrunning their own SMTP servers, again).\n"},{"id":"319024","messageId":"xmqqfugh74mn.fsf@gitster.mtv.corp.google.com","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"20170507010537.GA21703@starla","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2017-05-07T03:00:32Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-07T23:46:27Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Eric Wong <e@80x24.org> writes:\n\n> Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n>> Sorry, should've been clearer - I did check my spambox in my original\n>> message. Some old patches from Brandon were in there, but the ones I\n>> mentioned in my original message just seem to have been dropped.\n>\n> Apparently, vger also throttles mail to gmail aggressively, so\n> maybe some show up eventually:\n>\n> https://marc.info/?i=20170501.105057.824365162373797902.davem@davemloft.net\n>\n\nThanks for a pointer. That does explain the symptom I saw number of\ntimes, seeing list traffic that directly came to me hours before I\nsee a copy on the public list mirrors like gmane and public-inbox.\n\nAs it is a pain to access gmail inbox via imap (I was told that\nsomething called \"offline imap\" may alleviate the pain, but I\nhaven't tried it yet), I tend to use NNTP interface to either gmane\nor public-inbox almost exclusively, so like everybody else, it often\ntakes a message hours before I see it due to this throttling.  I do\nnot see the message I am responding to on public-inbox, and I am\nresponding to the copy I got direct from you, for example.\n\n"},{"id":"319075","messageId":"alpine.DEB.2.21.1.1705081239360.146734@virtualbox","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"CACBZZX42rhmrq8z0u1aRXw87oT22YywwnaFHUMjDYgtE_i56nw@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2017-05-08T10:42:40Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-08T10:43:07Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi Ævar,\n\nOn Sat, 6 May 2017, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n\n> I have one [script] to git am a patch from a msgid, thought I should\n> write something to handle a series in some DWIM fashion (e.g. apply the\n> latest continuous sequence of patches matching --author) but figured\n> that someone's probably wrote this already & I don't need to hack it up\n> myself...\n\nYou probably missed my previous mails mentioning\n\nhttps://github.com/git-for-windows/build-extra/blob/master/apply-from-public-inbox.sh\n\nYou can use this script to apply single patches (identified by their\nMessage-ID), and patch series (identified by their cover letter's\nMessage-ID).\n\nAs I mentioned at the Contributors' Summit at GitMerge 2017: I would\n*love* to collaborate on tools that make any part of the\ncontribution/review process less cumbersome than it is right now.\n\nCiao,\nDscho"},{"id":"319098","messageId":"20170508170136.GB179149@google.com","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.2.21.1.1705081239360.146734@virtualbox","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Brandon Williams","fromEmail":"bmwill@google.com","sentAt":"2017-05-08T17:01:36Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-08T17:01:44Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"bwilliams.eng@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On 05/08, Johannes Schindelin wrote:\n> Hi Ævar,\n> \n> On Sat, 6 May 2017, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n> \n> > I have one [script] to git am a patch from a msgid, thought I should\n> > write something to handle a series in some DWIM fashion (e.g. apply the\n> > latest continuous sequence of patches matching --author) but figured\n> > that someone's probably wrote this already & I don't need to hack it up\n> > myself...\n> \n> You probably missed my previous mails mentioning\n> \n> https://github.com/git-for-windows/build-extra/blob/master/apply-from-public-inbox.sh\n> \n> You can use this script to apply single patches (identified by their\n> Message-ID), and patch series (identified by their cover letter's\n> Message-ID).\n> \n> As I mentioned at the Contributors' Summit at GitMerge 2017: I would\n> *love* to collaborate on tools that make any part of the\n> contribution/review process less cumbersome than it is right now.\n\nYeah its not the most streamlined process.  I'm sure everyone writes\ntheir own scripts (like I did) tailored to their workflow.  For example\nI just tag a bunch of mails in mutt and then have a scripts which 'git\nam's them on a branch/base of my choosing.  But its specific to\nmy workflow so idk how useful it would be to others :(\n\n\n-- \nBrandon Williams\n"},{"id":"319099","messageId":"20170508170521.GC179149@google.com","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"20170507002630.GA15897@starla","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Brandon Williams","fromEmail":"bmwill@google.com","sentAt":"2017-05-08T17:05:21Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-08T17:05:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"bwilliams.eng@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On 05/07, Eric Wong wrote:\n> Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n> > > Samuel Lijin <sxlijin@gmail.com> wrote:\n> > >> Yep, I see these on public-inbox.org/git/ but not in my gmail inbox:\n> > >\n> > > Hi Samuel, check your Spam box (and move it to a normal inbox so\n> > > they can train it).  Gmail filters are known to trigger happy\n> > > and incorrectly flag messages.  It's been a problem on LKML,\n> > > too.\n> > \n> > Sorry, should've been clearer - I did check my spambox in my original\n> > message. Some old patches from Brandon were in there, but the ones I\n> > mentioned in my original message just seem to have been dropped.\n> \n> Yikes.  I wonder if Gmail automatically nukes messages if\n> they end up in enough Spam boxes...  Really hoping Googlers\n> can do something about this (or better, more people start\n> running their own SMTP servers, again).\n\nThat's quite odd, none of my coworkers are seeing behavior like this (my\nmail going to spam).\n\n-- \nBrandon Williams\n"},{"id":"319174","messageId":"alpine.DEB.2.21.1.1705091207580.146734@virtualbox","threadId":"45891","inReplyTo":"20170508170136.GB179149@google.com","subject":"Re: vger not relaying some of Junio's messages today?","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2017-05-09T10:10:48Z","receivedAt":"2017-05-09T10:11:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi Brandon,\n\nOn Mon, 8 May 2017, Brandon Williams wrote:\n\n> On 05/08, Johannes Schindelin wrote:\n> \n> > On Sat, 6 May 2017, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:\n> > \n> > > I have one [script] to git am a patch from a msgid, thought I should\n> > > write something to handle a series in some DWIM fashion (e.g. apply\n> > > the latest continuous sequence of patches matching --author) but\n> > > figured that someone's probably wrote this already & I don't need to\n> > > hack it up myself...\n> > \n> > You probably missed my previous mails mentioning\n> > \n> > https://github.com/git-for-windows/build-extra/blob/master/apply-from-public-inbox.sh\n> > \n> > You can use this script to apply single patches (identified by their\n> > Message-ID), and patch series (identified by their cover letter's\n> > Message-ID).\n> > \n> > As I mentioned at the Contributors' Summit at GitMerge 2017: I would\n> > *love* to collaborate on tools that make any part of the\n> > contribution/review process less cumbersome than it is right now.\n> \n> Yeah its not the most streamlined process.  I'm sure everyone writes\n> their own scripts (like I did) tailored to their workflow.\n\nI am sure you are right. What a waste of time, for everybody to come up\nwith essentially the same sort of scripts, just to be able to participate.\n\n> For example I just tag a bunch of mails in mutt and then have a scripts\n> which 'git am's them on a branch/base of my choosing.  But its specific\n> to my workflow so idk how useful it would be to others :(\n\nHmm. So it looks more and more as if you *have* to use mutt in order to\nbe rewarded with the option for an efficient workflow.\n\nI'm just so used to my good ole' Alpine. And others may be so used to\ntheir Thunderbird, Outlook, GMail, whatevs.\n\nBut hey, maybe the vger woes will eventually become so bad that even mutt\nand NNTP users will be affected negatively. At that point, we may look\ninto alternatives.\n\nCiao,\nDscho"}]}