{"thread":{"id":"4192","subject":"Shipping man pages?","startedAt":"2006-05-18T07:46:32Z","lastAt":"2006-05-18T18:49:06Z","messageCount":7,"participants":["Tilman Sauerbeck","Junio C Hamano","Fernando J. Pereda","Mark Rosenstand","Linus Torvalds"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"20213","messageId":"20060518074630.GA2994@code-monkey.de","threadId":"4192","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"Shipping man pages?","fromName":"Tilman Sauerbeck","fromEmail":"tilman@code-monkey.de","sentAt":"2006-05-18T07:46:32Z","receivedAt":"2006-05-18T07:46:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tilman@code-monkey.de","avatar":null},"body":"Hi,\natm, the git release tarballs don't contain man pages. They can be\ngenerated from the asciidoc source files, which makes the build depend\non python and asciidoc.\n\nThat's *very* inconvenient; would it be possible to include the man\npages in the release tarball?\n\nOr maybe offer them in a separate tarball?\n\nThanks,\nTilman\n\n-- \nA: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.\nQ: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?\nA: Top-posting.\nQ: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?\n"},{"id":"20214","messageId":"7vac9f69la.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net","threadId":"4192","inReplyTo":"20060518074630.GA2994@code-monkey.de","subject":"Re: Shipping man pages?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"junkio@cox.net","sentAt":"2006-05-18T08:06:09Z","receivedAt":"2006-05-18T08:06:09Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Tilman Sauerbeck writes:\n\n> atm, the git release tarballs don't contain man pages.\n\nI ship *source* tarball.\n\nI also happen to do RPM for people who do not want to build from\nthe source (btw, I do that from pure inertia). In addition,\npreformatted manual pages and html docs are available from man\nand html branches of the git.git repository.\n\nIf you are building from the source, please build from the\nsource. Everything you need is right there.\n\nIf you don't build from the source, please use whatever binary\ndistribution available out there. RPM happens to be available\nfrom kernel.org. If you are on Debian/Ubuntu/Gentoo/others,\nplease ask your distribution packager to include the manpages\nand html docs, if they don't already.\n\nWhy does this have to come up so often, and everybody who asks\nfor them never supplies the patch to do so?\n\n> Or maybe offer them in a separate tarball?\n\nThings that are buildable from the source do not belong in the\nsource tarball. If somebody wants to do this as a patch, I can\nbe talked into accepting it, but the build procedure should\nbuild a separate tarball (or two; one for man and another for\nwoman^Whtml).\n"},{"id":"20215","messageId":"20060518081037.GA8731@ferdyx.org","threadId":"4192","inReplyTo":"20060518074630.GA2994@code-monkey.de","subject":"Re: Shipping man pages?","fromName":"Fernando J. Pereda","fromEmail":"ferdy@ferdyx.org","sentAt":"2006-05-18T08:10:37Z","receivedAt":"2006-05-18T08:10:37Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ferdy@ferdyx.org","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/96bf7c1ddf7ccd430255bd12d9d42b212dbc033b28c668a2bdf9c3995aa81e61?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Thu, May 18, 2006 at 09:46:32AM +0200, Tilman Sauerbeck wrote:\n> Hi,\n> atm, the git release tarballs don't contain man pages. They can be\n> generated from the asciidoc source files, which makes the build depend\n> on python and asciidoc.\n> \n> That's *very* inconvenient; would it be possible to include the man\n> pages in the release tarball?\n> \n> Or maybe offer them in a separate tarball?\n\nHi Tilman,\n\nActually Junio has 'html' and 'man' branches in his git.git repository\nso you just have to use git tar-tree on them.\n\nI do this for the Gentoo packages, you can grab a tarball from any of\nour mirrors, the files are called git-{html,man}-VERSION.tar.bz2\n\n- ferdy\n\n-- \nFernando J. Pereda Garcimartín\nGentoo Developer (Alpha,net-mail,mutt,git)\n20BB BDC3 761A 4781 E6ED ED0B 0A48 5B0C 60BD 28D4\n"},{"id":"20221","messageId":"1147945298.1320.35.camel@mjollnir","threadId":"4192","inReplyTo":"7vac9f69la.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net","subject":"Re: Shipping man pages?","fromName":"Mark Rosenstand","fromEmail":"mark@borkware.net","sentAt":"2006-05-18T09:41:38Z","receivedAt":"2006-05-18T09:41:38Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"mark@borkware.net","avatar":null},"body":"On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 01:06 -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Tilman Sauerbeck writes:\n> \n> > atm, the git release tarballs don't contain man pages.\n> \n> I ship *source* tarball.\n\nWhich is great for generating binaries and other things that are likely\nto be incompatible across systems.\n\n> I also happen to do RPM for people who do not want to build from\n> the source (btw, I do that from pure inertia). In addition,\n> preformatted manual pages and html docs are available from man\n> and html branches of the git.git repository.\n> \n> If you are building from the source, please build from the\n> source. Everything you need is right there.\n\nBut asciidoc is a royal PITA to package or install - it doesn't even\nprovide a Makefile: http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/userguide.html#X38\n\nAdditionally it carries the whole docbook dependency chain with it.\n\n> If you don't build from the source, please use whatever binary\n> distribution available out there. RPM happens to be available\n> from kernel.org. If you are on Debian/Ubuntu/Gentoo/others,\n> please ask your distribution packager to include the manpages\n> and html docs, if they don't already.\n\nEven the packagers are likely to hate the unneccessary asciidoc\ndependency. As a result some of the small distributions that don't have\nthe manpower to support 1000+ packages choose to ship git without the\nman pages, which is a shame, IMO.\n\n> Why does this have to come up so often, and everybody who asks\n> for them never supplies the patch to do so?\n\nBecause it seems like a political decision rather than a technical one\n(it's trivial to add the docs as a prerequisite for the dist target.)\n\n> > Or maybe offer them in a separate tarball?\n> \n> Things that are buildable from the source do not belong in the\n> source tarball. If somebody wants to do this as a patch, I can\n> be talked into accepting it, but the build procedure should\n> build a separate tarball (or two; one for man and another for\n> woman^Whtml).\n\nThat would be great! I'd love to submit a patch, but I wouldn't be able\nto test it, because I'd need asciidoc.\n"},{"id":"20224","messageId":"20060518105703.GA29482@code-monkey.de","threadId":"4192","inReplyTo":"7vac9f69la.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net","subject":"Re: Shipping man pages?","fromName":"Tilman Sauerbeck","fromEmail":"tilman@code-monkey.de","sentAt":"2006-05-18T10:57:04Z","receivedAt":"2006-05-18T10:57:04Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tilman@code-monkey.de","avatar":null},"body":"Junio C Hamano [2006-05-18 01:06]:\n> Tilman Sauerbeck writes:\n> \n> [snip]\n> \n> Why does this have to come up so often, and everybody who asks\n> for them never supplies the patch to do so?\n\nIf it comes up that often it would indicate that this is actually a\nconcern to many people o_O\n\nAlso, I prefer to ask whether a patch would even be accepted so I don't\nwaste 3 hours of my life trying to figure out how to set up asciidoc and\ndocbook.\n\n> > Or maybe offer them in a separate tarball?\n> \n> Things that are buildable from the source do not belong in the\n> source tarball. If somebody wants to do this as a patch, I can\n> be talked into accepting it, but the build procedure should\n> build a separate tarball (or two; one for man and another for\n> woman^Whtml).\n\nI attached a patch.\n\nRegards,\nTilman\n\n-- \nA: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.\nQ: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?\nA: Top-posting.\nQ: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?\n\n\nCreated a dist target for Documentation/Makefile that tars up the man pages and html files.\n\nSigned-off-by: Tilman Sauerbeck \n\n\n---\n\n Documentation/Makefile | 16 +++++++++++++++-\n 1 files changed, 15 insertions(+), 1 deletions(-)\n\nf8b6b70c89364418724899ab5ca28aaaf3eee7dc\ndiff --git a/Documentation/Makefile b/Documentation/Makefile\nindex c1af22c..271d9e4 100644\n--- a/Documentation/Makefile\n+++ b/Documentation/Makefile\n@@ -31,6 +31,7 @@ man7=$(mandir)/man7\n # DESTDIR=\n \n INSTALL?=install\n+TAR?=tar\n \n #\n # Please note that there is a minor bug in asciidoc.\n@@ -55,6 +56,18 @@ install: man\n \t$(INSTALL) $(DOC_MAN1) $(DESTDIR)/$(man1)\n \t$(INSTALL) $(DOC_MAN7) $(DESTDIR)/$(man7)\n \n+-include ../GIT-VERSION-FILE\n+\n+dist: html man\n+\t@mkdir -p git-doc-{html,man}-$(GIT_VERSION)\n+\t@cp $(DOC_HTML) git-doc-html-$(GIT_VERSION)\n+\t@cp $(DOC_MAN1) $(DOC_MAN7) git-doc-man-$(GIT_VERSION)\n+\t\n+\t@for d in html man; do \\\n+\t\t$(TAR) cf git-doc-$$d-$(GIT_VERSION).tar git-doc-$$d-$(GIT_VERSION) && \\\n+\t\trm -rf git-doc-$$d-$(GIT_VERSION) && \\\n+\t\tgzip -f -9 git-doc-$$d-$(GIT_VERSION).tar \\\n+\t; done\n \n #\n # Determine \"include::\" file references in asciidoc files.\n@@ -73,7 +86,8 @@ README: ../README\n \n \n clean:\n-\trm -f *.xml *.html *.1 *.7 howto-index.txt howto/*.html doc.dep README\n+\trm -f *.xml *.html *.1 *.7 howto-index.txt howto/*.html doc.dep README \\\n+\t git-doc-{html,man}-$(GIT_VERSION).tar.gz\n \n %.html : %.txt\n \tasciidoc -b xhtml11 -d manpage -f asciidoc.conf $<\n-- \n1.3.3\n\n"},{"id":"20240","messageId":"7vodxvkws8.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net","threadId":"4192","inReplyTo":"1147945298.1320.35.camel@mjollnir","subject":"Re: Shipping man pages?","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"junkio@cox.net","sentAt":"2006-05-18T18:33:43Z","receivedAt":"2006-05-18T18:33:43Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Mark Rosenstand writes:\n\n> On Thu, 2006-05-18 at 01:06 -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>\n>> If you are building from the source, please build from the\n>> source. Everything you need is right there.\n>\n> But asciidoc is a royal PITA to package or install - it doesn't even\n> provide a Makefile: http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/userguide.html#X38\n>\n> Additionally it carries the whole docbook dependency chain with it.\n\nThat's a consequence of _your_ choice to build the documentation\nfiles from the source, when I give you preformatted files in\nhtml/man branches and/or prepackaged binary distributions. Even\nplain \"make all\" nor \"make install\" do not build them.\n\nIOW, not my problem.\n\nWe accomplish things by saying \"I did this, it solves my\nproblem, and it would help others -- so I share\", not by\ndemanding others to do things for you by saying \"If you do this,\nit would solve my problem. Now go do it\". That's how open\nsource works.\n\n>> Why does this have to come up so often, and everybody who asks\n>> for them never supplies the patch to do so?\n>\n> Because it seems like a political decision rather than a technical one\n\nI do not see why that is political. Do you need a politician to\ntell you what is source and what isn't?\n\n> (it's trivial to add the docs as a prerequisite for the dist target.)\n\nBeing trivial does not change things a whit, because I do not do\nthings I consider useless only because they are trivial.\n\nYou have to first convince me that it is useful to others, and\none way to do so is by showing that you care deeply enough about\nit -- doing the work yourself (instead of demanding _me_ to do\nsomething I do not believe is a good idea yet) is a good way to\ndo so. That would tell me that it is a real problem to you.\nWhen that happens, I might start considering the possibility\nthat a solution to that problem may be useful to other people.\n\nAnd it actually makes things actively worse to whine without\ndoing the work yourself when the necessary change is trivial.\nYou are saying that you cannot be bothered to do that yourself\neven though the change is trivial, which implies you _can_ live\nwithout formatted pages just fine. The conclusion is that not\nhaving the formatted pages is not such a big deal to you (after\nall, asciidoc toolchain might be a bear to install, but the\ndocuments formatted in it are very easy to read in the source\nform).\n\nNow, with a patch, Tilman showed us he cares deeply enough, so\nI'll take a look at it. Thanks, Tilman.\n"},{"id":"20241","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0605181142190.10823@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"4192","inReplyTo":"7vodxvkws8.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net","subject":"Re: Shipping man pages?","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2006-05-18T18:49:06Z","receivedAt":"2006-05-18T18:49:06Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Thu, 18 May 2006, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> \n> That's a consequence of _your_ choice to build the documentation\n> files from the source, when I give you preformatted files in\n> html/man branches and/or prepackaged binary distributions. Even\n> plain \"make all\" nor \"make install\" do not build them.\n\nBtw, in case others didn't notice, the easiest way to install the \npre-packaged branch is a truly disgusting hack:\n\n\tcd git\n\tgit tar-tree man | (cd /usr/share/man ; tar xvf -)\n\nor similar (yeah, you need to be root to do the unpack, of course, and \nyou may need to change the /usr/share/man to whatever is appropriate for \nyour distribution).\n\nNo need to actually even check out the 'man' branch.\n\n\t\tLinus\n"}]}