{"thread":{"id":"36383","subject":"Silly time stamps","startedAt":"2014-04-09T20:50:57Z","lastAt":"2014-04-14T18:00:50Z","messageCount":7,"participants":["Mahmoud Asshole","Michael Haggerty","Holger Hellmuth","Max Horn","Philip Oakley","Andreas Krey"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"238604","messageId":"loom.20140409T210150-369@post.gmane.org","threadId":"36383","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"Silly time stamps","fromName":"Mahmoud Asshole","fromEmail":"a1209145@drdrb.net","sentAt":"2014-04-09T20:50:57Z","receivedAt":"2014-04-09T20:50:57Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"a1209145@drdrb.net","avatar":null},"body":"Hi,\n\nThis is an example of timestamps are in git:\n tree c67dc912a777ef6198a5c76890ebf11cd8ccc625\n parent 6e527d8e07a80058bf8ac46180e25a9d4cb745eb\n author my name 1397073956 +0400\n committer my name 1397073956 +0400\n\n testing again\n\nAs you can see, it presents the timestamp in UNIX format (I suppose it's UTC)\nplus an additional information which is an offset that describes my time zone.\n\nNow, the way UTC works is that every client is supposed to apply his own offset\non it (based on locale stuff) so that the user-interface (let it be CLI or GUI)\ncan print an pretty time format based on his location. \n\nThe offset that is used is local to each client. E.g. if it's UTC 10:00, it\nwill look 14:00 (cause +04:00) in my part of the world, while looking as 12:00\nin another part of the world (+02:00 time-zone). This time-zone offset is local\nto the computer based on locale stuff. The only thing that we need is the UTF\ntime stamp (and then anyone can make it look pretty based on where he is\nliving).\n\nNow, the problem is that git shares the UTC time (totally OK) AND my fucking\ntime-zone! Why would anyone give a damn rat's ass about my time-zone? What\ndifference could it make if you know that the clock looked like \"14:00\" on my\npart of the world?\n\nThis was raised previously[1], but none of the responses are convincing.\n\nOne guy was saying here[2] some nonesense like \"I'd prefer not to lose the\ninformation. If someone has committed a change at 2am, I like to know that it\nwas 2am for _them_. It helps me decide where to look first for the cause of\nproblems. :)\"\n\nHow about we also modify the time data to augment it with my mood? E.g.\n\"1397073956 +0400 totally_pissed_off\".\n\nThe same asshole in [2] gave another retarded example that is just less visible\nto non-humans: \"It also helps disambiguate certain comments, especially those\ninvolving words or phrases such as 'yesterday' or 'this afternoon'.\".\n\nThis is equal to say: instead of curing the root cause of the problem (by\neducating assholes to not use ambiguous time information like \"yesterday\"),\nlet's fuck the software instead (by encoding useless information here and\nthere).\n\n[1] http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/52\n[2] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/114\n"},{"id":"238679","messageId":"5347CD22.9010003@alum.mit.edu","threadId":"36383","inReplyTo":"loom.20140409T210150-369@post.gmane.org","subject":"Re: Silly time stamps","fromName":"Michael Haggerty","fromEmail":"mhagger@alum.mit.edu","sentAt":"2014-04-11T11:08:18Z","receivedAt":"2014-04-11T11:08:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"mhagger@alum.mit.edu","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/119718?v=4"},"body":"On 04/09/2014 10:50 PM, Mahmoud Asshole wrote:\n> [...]\n\nPlease conduct your discussions here in a civil tone. It is both more\npleasant for all involved and also more likely to elicit a response. I\nhardly think that the \"waste\" of 12 bytes in every commit is an act of\nstupidity so inexcusable that it would deserve your bile, even *if* one\nwere to agree that this information is useless (which I personally don't\nthink).\n\nThanks,\nMichael\n\n-- \nMichael Haggerty\nmhagger@alum.mit.edu\n"},{"id":"238690","messageId":"5347EBF5.102@ira.uka.de","threadId":"36383","inReplyTo":"5347CD22.9010003@alum.mit.edu","subject":"Re: Silly time stamps","fromName":"Holger Hellmuth","fromEmail":"hellmuth@ira.uka.de","sentAt":"2014-04-11T13:19:49Z","receivedAt":"2014-04-11T13:19:49Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"hellmuth@ira.uka.de","avatar":null},"body":"Am 11.04.2014 13:08, schrieb Michael Haggerty:\n> On 04/09/2014 10:50 PM, Mahmoud Asshole wrote:\n>> [...]\n>\n> Please conduct your discussions here in a civil tone. It is both more\n> pleasant for all involved and also more likely to elicit a response. I\n> hardly think that the \"waste\" of 12 bytes in every commit is an act of\n> stupidity so inexcusable that it would deserve your bile, even *if* one\n> were to agree that this information is useless (which I personally don't\n> think).\n\nI would guess he is more concerned about the unnecessary disclosure of \ninformation that could be used to track or (together with other data) \nidentify you.\n\nSince the reasons to include it seem to be specifically to know more \nabout the comitter this seems to me the typical conflict between privacy \nand security.\n"},{"id":"238700","messageId":"3B629BFA-C610-4B4A-9CE4-629C8930D334@quendi.de","threadId":"36383","inReplyTo":"5347EBF5.102@ira.uka.de","subject":"Re: Silly time stamps","fromName":"Max Horn","fromEmail":"max@quendi.de","sentAt":"2014-04-11T15:14:54Z","receivedAt":"2014-04-11T15:14:54Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"max@quendi.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/241512?v=4"},"body":"\nOn 11.04.2014, at 15:19, Holger Hellmuth wrote:\n\n> Am 11.04.2014 13:08, schrieb Michael Haggerty:\n>> On 04/09/2014 10:50 PM, Mahmoud Asshole wrote:\n>>> [...]\n>> \n>> Please conduct your discussions here in a civil tone. It is both more\n>> pleasant for all involved and also more likely to elicit a response. I\n>> hardly think that the \"waste\" of 12 bytes in every commit is an act of\n>> stupidity so inexcusable that it would deserve your bile, even *if* one\n>> were to agree that this information is useless (which I personally don't\n>> think).\n> \n> I would guess he is more concerned about the unnecessary disclosure of information that could be used to track or (together with other data) identify you.\n\nPerhaps, though I fully agree with Michael that calling people \"assholes\" because their opinion differs from yours is not increasing the chances that anybody will listen to you, or bother to try and understand your problem.\n\n> \n> Since the reasons to include it seem to be specifically to know more about the comitter this seems to me the typical conflict between privacy and security.\n> \n\n\nMore between \"privacy\" (or perhaps \"personal safety\"? think: dissident coder?) vs. \"feature that is useful to some people\".\n\nIf one is truly concerned about spilling timezone information, how about this:\n\n alias git='TZ=0 git'\n\nSeems to work for me, at least in bash.\n\n\nCheers,\nMax\n"},{"id":"238701","messageId":"C689FD403BB74EB28156300F9353DE80@PhilipOakley","threadId":"36383","inReplyTo":"5347EBF5.102@ira.uka.de","subject":"Re: Silly time stamps","fromName":"Philip Oakley","fromEmail":"philipoakley@iee.org","sentAt":"2014-04-11T15:23:17Z","receivedAt":"2014-04-11T15:23:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"philipoakley@iee.email","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/914343?v=4"},"body":"From: \"Holger Hellmuth\" \nTo: \"Michael Haggerty\" \nCc: \"Mahmoud Asshole\" ; \n\nIf you look at \"Mahmoud's\" email address, it is from \nhttp://10minutemail.com/ 'the best disposable e-mail service.'.\n\nSo it looks like s/he knew what they were doing when venting their \nspleen.\n\nIt would have been nicer to know the underlying source of their \nfrustration, rather than them going off the rails.\n\nPhilip\n\n> Am 11.04.2014 13:08, schrieb Michael Haggerty:\n>> On 04/09/2014 10:50 PM, Mahmoud Asshole wrote:\n>>> [...]\n>>\n>> Please conduct your discussions here in a civil tone. It is both \n>> more\n>> pleasant for all involved and also more likely to elicit a response. \n>> I\n>> hardly think that the \"waste\" of 12 bytes in every commit is an act \n>> of\n>> stupidity so inexcusable that it would deserve your bile, even *if* \n>> one\n>> were to agree that this information is useless (which I personally \n>> don't\n>> think).\n>\n> I would guess he is more concerned about the unnecessary disclosure of \n> information that could be used to track or (together with other data) \n> identify you.\n>\n> Since the reasons to include it seem to be specifically to know more \n> about the comitter this seems to me the typical conflict between \n> privacy and security.\n"},{"id":"238708","messageId":"53481884.6080806@ira.uka.de","threadId":"36383","inReplyTo":"3B629BFA-C610-4B4A-9CE4-629C8930D334@quendi.de","subject":"Re: Silly time stamps","fromName":"Holger Hellmuth","fromEmail":"hellmuth@ira.uka.de","sentAt":"2014-04-11T16:29:56Z","receivedAt":"2014-04-11T16:29:56Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"hellmuth@ira.uka.de","avatar":null},"body":"Am 11.04.2014 17:14, schrieb Max Horn:\n> More between \"privacy\" (or perhaps \"personal safety\"? think: dissident coder?) vs. \"feature that is useful to some people\".\n\nWell, at least the reason mentioned in the gmane citation about knowing \nif it was 2 am for them, is strange. Did anyone ever check this \ntimestamp to see if a patch was made at an unusal hour? What does it \ntell you? Some people sleep from 4am to 11am and do their best work at 2am.\nOnly if you know someone you could infer he made a patch at an unusual \ntime, but then you probably also know where he lives and have this \ninformation anyway.\nYour best and only indication of a sub-par patch is the patch itself.\n\nThe only reason I can see is as a warning signal or indication that a \npatch wasn't sent by the person whos name is on the cover.\n"},{"id":"238851","messageId":"20140414180050.GA6405@inner.h.apk.li","threadId":"36383","inReplyTo":"loom.20140409T210150-369@post.gmane.org","subject":"Re: Silly time stamps","fromName":"Andreas Krey","fromEmail":"a.krey@gmx.de","sentAt":"2014-04-14T18:00:50Z","receivedAt":"2014-04-14T18:00:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"a.krey@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/37810?v=4"},"body":"On Wed, 09 Apr 2014 20:50:57 +0000, Mahmoud Asshole wrote:\n...\n> This was raised previously[1], but none of the responses are convincing.\n\nPlease go directly to the special hell of debugging timezone-related stuff\nin customer data, for which this extra bit of information is heaven-sent.\nDo not collect additional bile, and do not reappear here.\n\nAndreas\n\n-- \n\"Totally trivial. Famous last words.\"\nFrom: Linus Torvalds \nDate: Fri, 22 Jan 2010 07:29:21 -0800\n"}]}