{"thread":{"id":"35342","subject":"Add a bugzilla website","startedAt":"2013-11-15T07:44:13Z","lastAt":"2014-01-13T01:06:54Z","messageCount":13,"participants":["ycollette.nospam@free.fr","Damien Wyart","Konstantin Khomoutov","Matthieu Moy","Andrew Ardill","Jonathan Nieder","brian m. carlson","David Aguilar","Stefan Saasen"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"230663","messageId":"1840758230.314727311.1384501453631.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"1501110902.314721105.1384501257984.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","subject":"Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"","fromEmail":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","sentAt":"2013-11-15T07:44:13Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T07:44:13Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/2655b38720611596ebeddbdadc1a08edb52b0ac4e2d1f265072d86f9ccbc90ce?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Hello,\n\nI just wanted to ask a question: why is there no bugzilla website for git ?\nIt's better to put bugs into such a tool to follow there evolution than to manage bugs via a developpment mailing list ...\n\nBest regards,\n\nYC\n"},{"id":"230666","messageId":"20131115085326.GA2401@brouette","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"1840758230.314727311.1384501453631.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"Damien Wyart","fromEmail":"damien.wyart@gmail.com","sentAt":"2013-11-15T08:53:26Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T08:53:26Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"damien.wyart@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"* ycollette.nospam@free.fr [2013-11-15 08:44]:\n> I just wanted to ask a question: why is there no bugzilla website for\n> git ? It's better to put bugs into such a tool to follow there\n> evolution than to manage bugs via a developpment mailing list ...\n\nhttp://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/191835/focus=192464\n\n-- \nDamien Wyart\n"},{"id":"230667","messageId":"551223703.314994127.1384508447263.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"20131115085326.GA2401@brouette","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"","fromEmail":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","sentAt":"2013-11-15T09:40:47Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T09:40:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/2655b38720611596ebeddbdadc1a08edb52b0ac4e2d1f265072d86f9ccbc90ce?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"And the conclusion is ? No bugzilla tool installed because somebody want to build a gitbased bugzilla thing ?\n\nYC\n\n----- Mail original -----\nDe: \"Damien Wyart\" \nÀ: \"ycollette nospam\" \nCc: git@vger.kernel.org\nEnvoyé: Vendredi 15 Novembre 2013 09:53:26\nObjet: Re: Add a bugzilla website\n\n* ycollette.nospam@free.fr [2013-11-15 08:44]:\n> I just wanted to ask a question: why is there no bugzilla website for\n> git ? It's better to put bugs into such a tool to follow there\n> evolution than to manage bugs via a developpment mailing list ...\n\nhttp://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/191835/focus=192464\n\n-- \nDamien Wyart\n"},{"id":"230669","messageId":"20131115135132.431d3e344dadee64e2be5127@domain007.com","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"551223703.314994127.1384508447263.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"Konstantin Khomoutov","fromEmail":"flatworm@users.sourceforge.net","sentAt":"2013-11-15T09:51:32Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T09:51:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"flatworm@users.sourceforge.net","avatar":null},"body":"On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:40:47 +0100 (CET)\nycollette.nospam@free.fr wrote:\n\n> And the conclusion is ? No bugzilla tool installed because somebody\n> want to build a gitbased bugzilla thing ?\n\nWell, no, the real answer is that for those who actually write code and\napply patches, an e-mail based workflow is simpler: Git has tools to\napply patches right from Unix mailboxes, so one is able to just save a\nthread with the final patch series to a file and apply it. Some people\nalso prefer discussing patches inline -- in the same e-mail thread\nthe patch series being discussed had started.\n\nI'm aware of at least one big project sporting the same approach\nto handling bugs -- PostgreSQL.\n\nBut there was an announcement that an experimental JIRA instance has\nbeen set up for Git [1]. I'm not sure what its current status is, but\nyou could look at it.\n\nAlso Git's mirror on github [2] supposedly provides for pull requests.\nAgain, not sure whether/how they're handled.\n\n1. http://git-blame.blogspot.ru/2012/02/experimental-git-bug-tracker.html\n2. https://github.com/git/git/\n"},{"id":"230670","messageId":"361384464.315129845.1384511657291.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"20131115135132.431d3e344dadee64e2be5127@domain007.com","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"","fromEmail":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","sentAt":"2013-11-15T10:34:17Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T10:34:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/2655b38720611596ebeddbdadc1a08edb52b0ac4e2d1f265072d86f9ccbc90ce?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"OK, thanks for these informations.\nFrom a user perspective, having this volume of devel mails flooding all the bugs mail is very annoying.\nAnd following the status of a bug and the history of this bug is very hard too.\nThe bugzilla approach is really useful for the user who is reporting bugs: all the bugs are tracked, you can see if a bug has been already filled and put some additional informations if necessary.\n\nI will have a look at the JIRA thing.\n\nYC\n\n----- Mail original -----\nDe: \"Konstantin Khomoutov\" \nÀ: \"ycollette nospam\" \nCc: git@vger.kernel.org\nEnvoyé: Vendredi 15 Novembre 2013 10:51:32\nObjet: Re: Add a bugzilla website\n\nOn Fri, 15 Nov 2013 10:40:47 +0100 (CET)\nycollette.nospam@free.fr wrote:\n\n> And the conclusion is ? No bugzilla tool installed because somebody\n> want to build a gitbased bugzilla thing ?\n\nWell, no, the real answer is that for those who actually write code and\napply patches, an e-mail based workflow is simpler: Git has tools to\napply patches right from Unix mailboxes, so one is able to just save a\nthread with the final patch series to a file and apply it. Some people\nalso prefer discussing patches inline -- in the same e-mail thread\nthe patch series being discussed had started.\n\nI'm aware of at least one big project sporting the same approach\nto handling bugs -- PostgreSQL.\n\nBut there was an announcement that an experimental JIRA instance has\nbeen set up for Git [1]. I'm not sure what its current status is, but\nyou could look at it.\n\nAlso Git's mirror on github [2] supposedly provides for pull requests.\nAgain, not sure whether/how they're handled.\n\n1. http://git-blame.blogspot.ru/2012/02/experimental-git-bug-tracker.html\n2. https://github.com/git/git/\n"},{"id":"230671","messageId":"vpqzjp62b2u.fsf@anie.imag.fr","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"361384464.315129845.1384511657291.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"Matthieu Moy","fromEmail":"matthieu.moy@grenoble-inp.fr","sentAt":"2013-11-15T10:50:17Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T10:50:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"matthieu.moy@grenoble-inp.fr","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/72c8a2705971a25dfaff23cece15130d405685845d911aedd5667ace277f3fc5?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr writes:\n\n> The bugzilla approach is really useful for the user who is reporting\n> bugs: all the bugs are tracked, you can see if a bug has been already\n> filled and put some additional informations if necessary.\n\nAs a user, the most important thing is that the bug is eventually fixed.\nI had a lot of experiences with projects using bugtrackers, where\nI filed bugs, and the bugs were burried forever in the bugtracker. Not\nall projects are like this, but the danger of using a bugtracker to have\nlong-standing bugs forgotten is high. It is especially high when there's\nno one paid to maintain the list of open bugs low.\n\nAs opposed to this, most bug reports on this list are followed by a\nlively discussion and a patch.\n\nSure, a bugtracker could complement this, but someone would have to\nvolunteer to set up and maintain one, and to get developpers interested\nin fixing bugs reported there. There have been attempts, but AFAIK no\nsuccess.\n\n-- \nMatthieu Moy\nhttp://www-verimag.imag.fr/~moy/\n"},{"id":"230685","messageId":"CAH5451=+N1vYoNeweQXe9vavjmRvkEzP=7U+mDf-0zH9OSpZPA@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"20131115135132.431d3e344dadee64e2be5127@domain007.com","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"Andrew Ardill","fromEmail":"andrew.ardill@gmail.com","sentAt":"2013-11-15T17:27:02Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T17:27:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"andrew.ardill@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/da14cb7c091dd44dc6c63a4d3361b149acaf25226dc78eb4131a17b93d9b0993?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On 15 November 2013 01:51, Konstantin Khomoutov\n wrote:\n> But there was an announcement that an experimental JIRA instance has\n> been set up for Git [1]. I'm not sure what its current status is, but\n> you could look at it.\n\nSo!\n\nThe biggest concern has always been that any bug tracking system needs\nto complement the existing workflow of many developers. For bugs and\nfeature requests, they are raised, discussed, and fixed on the list.\nReplacing this process is not in scope for a bug tracker.\n\nIn that framework the main value a bug tracker has is keeping track of\nwhat bugs exist, what versions they affect, and when they are fixed.\nUnfortunately, at the moment, collecting and curating this information\nis entirely manual.\n\nThe JIRA attempt [1] looks to pull in every conversation and thread it\nfor us (adding replies as comments to existing tickets), but hasn't\ntried to anything beyond that. Automation may be possible, to do\nthings like parse What's Cooking and the release notes, but that is a\nharder problem :)\n\nThe tools are there, and you should be able to log in and add/update\nissues. Feel free! (Definite value would be derived from a dedicated\ncurator who updated the bug tracker manually)\n\nI had a look over the set up (I hadn't in a while) and realised we\nwere dropping some emails, so I'll try and fix that, but the bigger\nproblem is that simply creating tickets to track conversations is not\nenough.\n\nWe need to then identify those conversations that we care about and\ncapture some metadata about them - did they resolve the reported\nissue, and when did that happen? Junio is the source of truth for\nthis, and so ideally we would use his communications to understand it,\nbut that just shifts the problem to linking the issues he writes about\nto the conversations that started them.\n\nIn any case, adding value to the existing process is hard (because it\nworks quite well!) and probably requires significantly more work to\neven understand what that value might look like. This, I think, is the\nkey reason it is hard to truly get started with any bug tracking\nsolution; the solution is not obvious, and the current (very\ncustomised) workflow is not supported directly by any tool.\n\nRegards,\n\nAndrew Ardill\n\n[1] https://git-scm.atlassian.net\n"},{"id":"230686","messageId":"20131115191957.GA27781@google.com","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"CAH5451=+N1vYoNeweQXe9vavjmRvkEzP=7U+mDf-0zH9OSpZPA@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"Jonathan Nieder","fromEmail":"jrnieder@gmail.com","sentAt":"2013-11-15T19:19:58Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T19:19:58Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jrnieder@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/281595?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nAndrew Ardill wrote:\n> On 15 November 2013 01:51, Konstantin Khomoutov\n> wrote:\n\n>> But there was an announcement that an experimental JIRA instance has\n>> been set up for Git [1]. I'm not sure what its current status is, but\n>> you could look at it.\n>\n> So!\n>\n> The biggest concern has always been that any bug tracking system needs\n> to complement the existing workflow of many developers. For bugs and\n> feature requests, they are raised, discussed, and fixed on the list.\n> Replacing this process is not in scope for a bug tracker.\n\nI always thought the biggest concern was that someone has to have a\nsense of what bugs are a priority to track and do the curation to keep\nthe list of bugs useful. In the mailing list it's easy to prioritize\nbased on what people are actually working on; on a bug tracker, which\nis mainly about what people are *not* working on, that's harder work.\n\nOne way to address that problem is to decentralize: maybe everyone has\na different idea of what bugs are important, but if each person or\nproject makes their own idea of that public, you get most of the\nbenefit of a bugtracker. Bonus points if different project's\nbugtrackers link to each other to avoid duplication of information.\n\nIn this vein, there are a few active bugtrackers for git already:\n\n * the mailing list archive is the canonical source of truth\n * the JIRA experiment: https://git-scm.atlassian.net\n * the Debian project maintains http://bugs.debian.org/src:git\n * the Ubuntu project maintains\n https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/git\n\nI don't think the Ubuntu bugtracker wants reports for upstream issues\nthat were not discovered on Ubuntu. By contrast, the maintainers of the\nDebian bugtracker have made it clear that they are happy to receive\nreports for the git package even when they do not affect Debian at all\n(e.g., Windows-specific issues).\n\nIn other words: if you report a bug by sending an email to\nsubmit@bugs.debian.org with body text starting with\n\n\tPackage: git\n\tVersion: 1:1.8.5~rc2-1\n\tTags: upstream\n\n\t... description of the bug here ...\n\nthen I am happy to keep track of it, link to the corresponding\nupstream conversation, and let you know when I notice it's fixed. Of\ncourse I won't fix your bug for you, unless it's a priority to me for\nother reasons. :)\n\nMore details on reporting bugs through the Debian BTS are at [1].\n\nMaybe other people provide the same service as well.\n\nThanks and hope that helps,\nJonathan\n\n[1] http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Reporting\n"},{"id":"230691","messageId":"20131115225709.GC314350@vauxhall.crustytoothpaste.net","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"551223703.314994127.1384508447263.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"brian m. carlson","fromEmail":"sandals@crustytoothpaste.net","sentAt":"2013-11-15T22:57:09Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-15T22:57:09Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"sandals@crustytoothpaste.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/497054?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 10:40:47AM +0100, ycollette.nospam@free.fr wrote:\n> And the conclusion is ? No bugzilla tool installed because somebody\n> want to build a gitbased bugzilla thing ?\n\nPersonally, I do not want Yet Another Bugzilla Account. A project is\nsignificantly less likely to get a patch from me if I have to create an\naccount to report a bug. Most of the patches I send to various projects\nare for bugs I've experienced and want to provide a fix for, so I send a\nsmall number of patches to many projects.\n\nI feel that the mailing list workflow ends up working very well for Git\nand it provides a low barrier to entry for those that want to send just\none or two patches for problems that they're experiencing. It also\nallows me to see and comment on virtually every patch on the list, while\nignoring threads I am not interested in, a combination which is\ndifficult to achieve with a web-based bug tracker.\n\n-- \nbrian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US\n+1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only\nOpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b: 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187\n"},{"id":"230748","messageId":"1186100344.320778474.1384760239079.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"20131115225709.GC314350@vauxhall.crustytoothpaste.net","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"","fromEmail":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","sentAt":"2013-11-18T07:37:19Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-18T07:37:19Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ycollette.nospam@free.fr","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/2655b38720611596ebeddbdadc1a08edb52b0ac4e2d1f265072d86f9ccbc90ce?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"\nOn most linux distro bugzilla website, there are some people dedicated to triaging bugs (finding duplicated bugs, asking for more informations, closing old and / or resolved bugs).\nTo have an efficient bugtracking tool needs to have some people dedicated to this.\nBut for the user, it's a better approach. For example, I do not need to register to the devel list and I do not have to watch all mails to locate the one which concerns my bug.\nIt works nicely with fedora, magieia and other distro / tools, so I don't know why this shouldn't work fine with git ?\nBut as far as I can read, most people here are very reluctant to use a bugtracking tool ...\n\nYC\n\n----- Mail original -----\nDe: \"brian m. carlson\" \nÀ: \"ycollette nospam\" \nCc: git@vger.kernel.org\nEnvoyé: Vendredi 15 Novembre 2013 23:57:09\nObjet: Re: Add a bugzilla website\n\nOn Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 10:40:47AM +0100, ycollette.nospam@free.fr wrote:\n> And the conclusion is ? No bugzilla tool installed because somebody\n> want to build a gitbased bugzilla thing ?\n\nPersonally, I do not want Yet Another Bugzilla Account. A project is\nsignificantly less likely to get a patch from me if I have to create an\naccount to report a bug. Most of the patches I send to various projects\nare for bugs I've experienced and want to provide a fix for, so I send a\nsmall number of patches to many projects.\n\nI feel that the mailing list workflow ends up working very well for Git\nand it provides a low barrier to entry for those that want to send just\none or two patches for problems that they're experiencing. It also\nallows me to see and comment on virtually every patch on the list, while\nignoring threads I am not interested in, a combination which is\ndifficult to achieve with a web-based bug tracker.\n\n-- \nbrian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US\n+1 832 623 2791 | http://www.crustytoothpaste.net/~bmc | My opinion only\nOpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b: 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187\n"},{"id":"230751","messageId":"vpqiovpubmh.fsf@anie.imag.fr","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"1186100344.320778474.1384760239079.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"Matthieu Moy","fromEmail":"matthieu.moy@grenoble-inp.fr","sentAt":"2013-11-18T12:40:06Z","receivedAt":"2013-11-18T12:40:06Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"matthieu.moy@grenoble-inp.fr","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/72c8a2705971a25dfaff23cece15130d405685845d911aedd5667ace277f3fc5?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"[ Please, don't top-post, and set your mailer correctly so that the To:\n header points to the person you're replying to. ]\n\nycollette.nospam@free.fr writes:\n\n> On most linux distro bugzilla website, there are some people dedicated\n> to triaging bugs (finding duplicated bugs, asking for more\n> informations, closing old and / or resolved bugs).\n> To have an efficient bugtracking tool needs to have some people dedicated to this.\n\nOn this list, proposals like \"I would like to volunteer to do XYZ\" are\nusually more welcome than \"someone should volunteer to do XYZ\"...\n\n> But for the user, it's a better approach. For example, I do not need\n> to register to the devel list and I do not have to watch all mails to\n> locate the one which concerns my bug.\n\nYou don't need to register to post, and people will Cc-you in their\nreplies by default.\n\n-- \nMatthieu Moy\nhttp://www-verimag.imag.fr/~moy/\n"},{"id":"232897","messageId":"CAJDDKr4kKOz68SESDqhrPB+hUO15i76uUJA=6HF=8AUxLD==DQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"361384464.315129845.1384511657291.JavaMail.root@zimbra35-e6.priv.proxad.net","subject":"Re: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"David Aguilar","fromEmail":"davvid@gmail.com","sentAt":"2014-01-08T09:24:38Z","receivedAt":"2014-01-08T09:24:38Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"davvid@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/13196?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 2:34 AM, wrote:\n> OK, thanks for these informations.\n> From a user perspective, having this volume of devel mails flooding all the bugs mail is very annoying.\n> And following the status of a bug and the history of this bug is very hard too.\n> The bugzilla approach is really useful for the user who is reporting bugs: all the bugs are tracked, you can see if a bug has been already filled and put some additional informations if necessary.\n>\n> I will have a look at the JIRA thing.\n\nFWIW Debian and Fedora (and possibly others) have \"git\" components in\ntheir bugtrackers.\n\nhttp://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?dist=unstable;package=git\n\nhttps://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?component=git&product=Fedora\n\nIt might be worth working along with one of the distros to avoid\nduplicating effort.\n\ncheers,\n-- \nDavid\n"},{"id":"233047","messageId":"CADoxLGNY6mPNu=d-zXN_Tatp-LbfodWXWQWKZsvmDibqZhXCcQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"35342","inReplyTo":"CADoxLGPnoo_fXsQXE2jb_H4Otf9eRWsN=nQP9smhPbt20H-72Q@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Fwd: Add a bugzilla website","fromName":"Stefan Saasen","fromEmail":"ssaasen@atlassian.com","sentAt":"2014-01-13T01:06:54Z","receivedAt":"2014-01-13T01:06:54Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ssaasen@atlassian.com","avatar":null},"body":"> In any case, adding value to the existing process is hard (because it\n> works quite well!) and probably requires significantly more work to\n> even understand what that value might look like. This, I think, is the\n> key reason it is hard to truly get started with any bug tracking\n> solution; the solution is not obvious, and the current (very\n> customised) workflow is not supported directly by any tool.\n>\n> Regards,\n>\n> Andrew Ardill\n>\n> [1] https://git-scm.atlassian.net\n\n\nI think you summarised the challenges very well and I don’t think there is an\nobvious answer to that.\n\nI’d just like to offer any help that I or we (Atlassian) could give you. Given\nyour experience with JIRA I’m sure that you’ve got everything covered, but if\nyou need anything, please ping me.\n\nRe-reading the old discussions there was a concern that the issue data was not\navailable, I just wanted to chime in and mention that if you are using a JIRA\nOnDemand (e.g. the https://git-scm.atlassian.net) instance you can get the full\nbackup of your data (including any attachments, data available as XML) and\nthere is a JIRA REST API as well.\n\nI know that this is just a very tangential concern given the challenges of\nmaking an issue tracker work with an email based workflow that has proven quite\nsuccessful but I at least wanted to address that and offer any help you might\nneed.\n\n\nCheers,\nStefan\n"}]}