{"thread":{"id":"2955","subject":"[OT] Shameless troll ;o)","startedAt":"2006-01-03T01:22:18Z","lastAt":"2006-01-04T03:45:16Z","messageCount":14,"participants":["walt","Linus Torvalds","Randal L. Schwartz","Theodore Ts'o","Johannes Schindelin","H. Peter Anvin","Andreas Ericsson","Chuck Lever","Greg KH"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"14129","messageId":"dpcjk7$9tp$1@sea.gmane.org","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"[OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"walt","fromEmail":"wa1ter@myrealbox.com","sentAt":"2006-01-03T01:22:18Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T01:22:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"wa1ter@myrealbox.com","avatar":null},"body":"Forbes magazine just published an interview with OpenBSD's\nleader, Theo-The-Rat, who managed to insult almost everyone\nin the open-source community -- including our own Linus, of\ncourse.\n\nThe article quoted Linus as saying that Theo 'is difficult'.\n\nSpeaking as one who has personally been insulted by Theo for\nstating something which was demonstrably a fact -- I can only\nagree with Linus's assessment. (I stopped posting bug-reports\nto OpenBSD's mailing lists after that incident.)\n\nSo -- can I tempt Linus into explaining why he thinks Theo is\n'difficult'? (I admit that my wife has given me a taste for\nsoap opera and idle gossip. You can blame her for this post ;O)\n\nHappy New Year to all.\n"},{"id":"14130","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601021733070.3668@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"dpcjk7$9tp$1@sea.gmane.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2006-01-03T01:39:01Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T01:39:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Mon, 2 Jan 2006, walt wrote:\n> \n> So -- can I tempt Linus into explaining why he thinks Theo is\n> 'difficult'? (I admit that my wife has given me a taste for\n> soap opera and idle gossip. You can blame her for this post ;O)\n\nActually, every time I've met Theo in person (which isn't all that often, \nmainly at Usenix), he's been quite nice.\n\nI just suspect that he's even more opinionated than I am (yes, it's \npossible), and thinks that everybody who disagrees with him is wrong by \ndefinition.\n\nNow, admittedly I do that too, so maybe the difference isn't that big \nafter all (and if somebody calls me \"difficult\", I'd think he's trying to \nbe polite too ;).\n\nI think I'm more likely to have areas that I don't care about, and will \nsay \"whatever\" to than Theo. That may be the _real_ difficulty with him: \nanything he doesn't care for, he says \"no\" to.\n\n\t\tLinus\n"},{"id":"14131","messageId":"86vex23pam.fsf@blue.stonehenge.com","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"dpcjk7$9tp$1@sea.gmane.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Randal L. Schwartz","fromEmail":"merlyn@stonehenge.com","sentAt":"2006-01-03T04:31:45Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T04:31:45Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"merlyn@stonehenge.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/dc528d210743ff0333e6213f9ee7b33b23f1b7bc1f3c5a8c2d819074ecd7ab19?d=mp&s=160"},"body":">>>>> \"walt\" == walt writes:\n\nwalt> The article quoted Linus as saying that Theo 'is difficult'.\n\nI had my first run-in with Theo just a month back, in which I was told\n\"You are clearly not skilled enough to even compile code\". I blogged\nabout it at , including\nlinks to the entire mail exchange archive.\n\nI now consider myself a \"made man\" on OpenBSD. :)\n\n-- \nRandal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095\n \nPerl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.\nSee PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!\n"},{"id":"14136","messageId":"20060103145639.GC20353@thunk.org","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"dpcjk7$9tp$1@sea.gmane.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Theodore Ts'o","fromEmail":"tytso@mit.edu","sentAt":"2006-01-03T14:56:39Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T14:56:39Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tytso@mit.edu","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/51416?v=4"},"body":"On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 05:22:18PM -0800, walt wrote:\n> Forbes magazine just published an interview with OpenBSD's\n> leader, Theo-The-Rat, who managed to insult almost everyone\n> in the open-source community -- including our own Linus, of\n> course.\n\nIf by \"Just Published\" you mean over six months ago, maybe.\nBasically, the troll is Daniel Lyons, a Forbes writer who at every\nopportunity tries to trash Linux. Just ignore him; or better yet,\ncancel your Forbes subscription, and a send a note to the Forbes\npublishers saying why. I've completely lost any respect I've had for\nthe Forbes magazine, partially as a result of the multiple dreck\nmasquerading as articles published by Dan Lyons. Speaking personally,\nI believe there are much better places for me to get my business news,\nincluding Business Week and the Economist.\n\n\t\t\t\t\t- Ted\n"},{"id":"14137","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.63.0601031608490.11427@wbgn013.biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"20060103145639.GC20353@thunk.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2006-01-03T15:10:27Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T15:10:27Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Theodore Ts'o wrote:\n\n> Basically, the troll is Daniel Lyons, [...]\n\nOooh, I almost started to take this article serious enough to actually \nread it.\n\nThanks,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"14146","messageId":"43BAD395.5090801@zytor.com","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"20060103145639.GC20353@thunk.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"H. Peter Anvin","fromEmail":"hpa@zytor.com","sentAt":"2006-01-03T19:42:13Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T19:42:13Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"hpa@zytor.com","avatar":null},"body":"Theodore Ts'o wrote:\n> On Mon, Jan 02, 2006 at 05:22:18PM -0800, walt wrote:\n> \n>>Forbes magazine just published an interview with OpenBSD's\n>>leader, Theo-The-Rat, who managed to insult almost everyone\n>>in the open-source community -- including our own Linus, of\n>>course.\n> \n> \n> If by \"Just Published\" you mean over six months ago, maybe.\n> Basically, the troll is Daniel Lyons, a Forbes writer who at every\n> opportunity tries to trash Linux. Just ignore him; or better yet,\n> cancel your Forbes subscription, and a send a note to the Forbes\n> publishers saying why. I've completely lost any respect I've had for\n> the Forbes magazine, partially as a result of the multiple dreck\n> masquerading as articles published by Dan Lyons. Speaking personally,\n> I believe there are much better places for me to get my business news,\n> including Business Week and the Economist.\n> \n\nLook on Groklaw if you want to know more about Mr. Lyons and the stuff \nhe's published.\n\n\t-hpa\n"},{"id":"14147","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601031152430.3668@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"43BAD395.5090801@zytor.com","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2006-01-03T20:09:22Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T20:09:22Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Tue, 3 Jan 2006, H. Peter Anvin wrote:\n> \n> Look on Groklaw if you want to know more about Mr. Lyons and the stuff he's\n> published.\n\nWell, in the defense of Dan Lyons, I think he's been somewhat vilified, \nand has had a perfectly human reaction of striking back. \n\nHe tends to look for problems, but not every piece he has written has been \nnegative. In fact, some of them haven't been _nearly_ as negative as they \nhave then been purported to be in groklaw. I think groklaw has had a \nsomewhat unfortunate \"either you're with us, or you're against us\" herd \nmentality.\n\nThe fact that Lyons then has been negative towards groklaw has just \ncemented that bad situation further.\n\nIt's interesting that Ted piped up, because I know that IBM has had the \nexact same problem with Lyons. He wrote some negative article, at which \npoint IBM told its engineers not to talk to him any more, which caused \nsubsequent articles to be negative too.\n\nYes, Forbes is pretty bad. It's a \"rah rah\" magazine for people who wished \nthey were rich. It's a small step up from the check-out counter magazines \nthat alternately glorify and vilify Jessica Simpson or whoever is the \ncelebrity of the week.\n\nThere's no question that you're better off with the Wall Street Journal \n(who has some of the best journalists in the business, as far as I can \ntell, and while I don't know crud about business, I _do_ know journalistm) \nor the Economist if you actually care about business and economy. But \nthat's not what Forbes is about.\n\nQuite frankly, I've seen Dan Lyons work, and my opinion is that he's a \nbetter journalist than many. He may be opinionated and swayed by negative \nfeelings, but I've seen at least two stories that he actually did research \nhimself, and followed up on. The end result can be skewed by his feelings, \nbut that's still a hell of a lot more than some people will do.\n\nSo give people their due, even when you disagree with them occasionally. \n\nAnd understand that journalists are very much people too, and react badly \nto the kind of totally uncalled for name-calling that Dan Lyons has gotten \non groklaw over the last year or two (yeah, he got things wrong for one of \nhis first pieces on the SCO saga. And he doesn't like IBM, and I can \npretty much guarantee you that he _detests_ groklaw by now. And it will \nshow in his reporting.).\n\n\t\t\tLinus\n"},{"id":"14149","messageId":"20060103222802.GA29610@thunk.org","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601031152430.3668@g5.osdl.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Theodore Ts'o","fromEmail":"tytso@mit.edu","sentAt":"2006-01-03T22:28:02Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T22:28:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tytso@mit.edu","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/51416?v=4"},"body":"On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 12:09:22PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:\n> He tends to look for problems, but not every piece he has written has been \n> negative. In fact, some of them haven't been _nearly_ as negative as they \n> have then been purported to be in groklaw. I think groklaw has had a \n> somewhat unfortunate \"either you're with us, or you're against us\" herd \n> mentality.\n\nI'm not aware of any positive articles ever written from Dan Lyons; if\nyou know of any, feel free to send me the URL. And it's certainly\ntrue that Linux is not the only thing that Mr. Lyons like to trash.\nFor example, his article in the November 2005 Forbes' cover story\nbegan:\n\n\tWeb logs are the prized platform of an online lynch mob\n\tspouting liberty but spewing lies, libel and invective. Their\n\tpotent allies in this pursuit include Google and Yahoo.\n\nPeople can make their own decision whether they would consider this\n\"balanced journalism\".\n\nI'm not actually aware of any bad experience IBM had with Mr. Lyons,\nand I'm not aware of any \"don't talk to Dan Lyons\" warning from\nmanagement, other than the standard rules requesting IBM engineers not\ntalk with _any_ journalist or analyst without first clearing things\nwith press or analyst relations --- but that's pretty standard for any\nlarge corporation.\n\nThe only reason why I piped up was because (a) I didn't think six\nmonths ago counted as \"just published\", and (b) it's not worth wasting\ntime or helping reward Forbes with ad clicks by reading an article\nfrom someone who has far as I know, has always published nasty\narticles about Linux and anything related to Open Source.\n\n> And understand that journalists are very much people too, and react badly \n> to the kind of totally uncalled for name-calling that Dan Lyons has gotten \n> on groklaw over the last year or two (yeah, he got things wrong for one of \n> his first pieces on the SCO saga. And he doesn't like IBM, and I can \n> pretty much guarantee you that he _detests_ groklaw by now. And it will \n> show in his reporting.).\n\nCertainly, journalists are people; but they are supposed to check\ntheir biases at the door when they start writing (except on the\neditorials page); that's part of the stated advantages of\n\"professional journalists\" over the undiscplined bloggers which Dan\nLyons so gleefully trashed in most recent cover article. Given that\nhe makes no effort hide his biases, at least in my book that makes him\na lousy journalist.\n\n\t\t\t\t\t\t- Ted\n"},{"id":"14150","messageId":"43BAFF1B.6080607@op5.se","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"20060103222802.GA29610@thunk.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Andreas Ericsson","fromEmail":"ae@op5.se","sentAt":"2006-01-03T22:47:55Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T22:47:55Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ae@op5.se","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/426e89595c75a8f5252dd0c989e5fabe5bcac616e68557427ad9aef6b0ca342a?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Theodore Ts'o wrote:\n> \n> Certainly, journalists are people; but they are supposed to check\n> their biases at the door when they start writing (except on the\n> editorials page); that's part of the stated advantages of\n> \"professional journalists\" over the undiscplined bloggers which Dan\n> Lyons so gleefully trashed in most recent cover article. Given that\n> he makes no effort hide his biases, at least in my book that makes him\n> a lousy journalist.\n> \n\nNot necessarily. I've got a journalist background myself. When I went to \nschool we were taught to say what was true, how we came to know that, \nwhat we *think* is true, why we think that and what our opinions are \nabout it, preferrably but not necessarily in that order. Speculations \nand opinions are what differs a journalist from a reporter.\n\nWe were also taught that we, as reporters, should be the ones pushing \nthe boundaries and our editors should be holding us back. I think Mr. \nLyons editor is not doing a very good job. Some of the articles I \nstumbled across were not worth the time it took to let google find them \nfor me.\n\nI've never met Mr. Lyons or, until today, read anything he's written. \n From what little I've gathered though, he seems to be stubborn, \nnarrowminded and rude, but not eloquent enough to pull it off with style.\n\nThat said, journalists are actually supposed to be biased (how can you \nhave opinions for something you don't think anything about?), but in a \nstylishly blasé and preferrably entertaining sort of way.\n\n-- \nAndreas Ericsson andreas.ericsson@op5.se\nOP5 AB www.op5.se\nTel: +46 8-230225 Fax: +46 8-230231\n"},{"id":"14151","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.63.0601040023360.28936@wbgn013.biozentrum.uni-wuerzburg.de","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"43BAFF1B.6080607@op5.se","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2006-01-03T23:29:11Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T23:29:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Andreas Ericsson wrote:\n\n> That said, journalists are actually supposed to be biased (how can you have\n> opinions for something you don't think anything about?), but in a stylishly\n> blasé and preferrably entertaining sort of way.\n\nI happened to read two or three articles of Dan Lyons (yes, I read Groklaw \nand tried to find out if Dan Lyons really investigated the facts, or left \nout unpleasing details deliberately). I found that he not only lacks in \nstyle, but in presenting all the facts.\n\nIt's one thing to be biased.\n\nIt's another thing completely, to leave out facts you don't want to be \ntrue.\n\nAs Linus said, everybody is opinionated. But if somebody twists the facts \nto say something what they didn't originally, I don't read his articles \nany longer. As simple as that.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"14152","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601031546430.3668@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"20060103222802.GA29610@thunk.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2006-01-03T23:55:11Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-03T23:55:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Theodore Ts'o wrote:\n> \n> I'm not aware of any positive articles ever written from Dan Lyons; if\n> you know of any, feel free to send me the URL.\n\nWell, here's one I know Dan researched..\n\n\thttp://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0920/180_print.html\n\nThe fact that you don't like the man, and that he's more critical than \nover-the-top enthusiastic, hey. That doesn't make him unprofessional or \nmean that he has no journalistic integrity. Being critical is way too \nseldom seen, and as you admit, Lyons is by no means one-sidedly critical. \n\nSo maybe his glass is half full. Still no reason to dismiss him.\n\n> \tWeb logs are the prized platform of an online lynch mob\n> \tspouting liberty but spewing lies, libel and invective. Their\n> \tpotent allies in this pursuit include Google and Yahoo.\n> \n> People can make their own decision whether they would consider this\n> \"balanced journalism\".\n\nHey, he's been vilified by some of those blogs. Unnecessarily, I say. \n\n> I'm not actually aware of any bad experience IBM had with Mr. Lyons,\n> and I'm not aware of any \"don't talk to Dan Lyons\" warning from\n> management, other than the standard rules requesting IBM engineers not\n> talk with _any_ journalist or analyst without first clearing things\n> with press or analyst relations --- but that's pretty standard for any\n> large corporation.\n\nYes. And when trying to clear it with IBM legal, Greg KH was told not to \ntalk to Dan Lyons. \n\n> Certainly, journalists are people; but they are supposed to check\n> their biases at the door when they start writing (except on the\n> editorials page); that's part of the stated advantages of\n> \"professional journalists\" over the undiscplined bloggers which Dan\n> Lyons so gleefully trashed in most recent cover article. Given that\n> he makes no effort hide his biases, at least in my book that makes him\n> a lousy journalist.\n\nWhat naïve school did you go through where journalists aren't idealistic \npuppies with an agenda?\n\nThe fact is, they all have their biases. The fact that open source tends \nto strike a chord with them and they almost universally end up \nunderstanding about freedom of the GPL kind is usually a big help. The \nfact that some have other biases don't make them worse journalists. It \njust means that you see different kinds of stories from them.\n\n\t\t\tLinus"},{"id":"14153","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601031559400.3668@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601031546430.3668@g5.osdl.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2006-01-04T00:06:33Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-04T00:06:33Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Linus Torvalds wrote:\n> \n> The fact is, they all have their biases. The fact that open source tends \n> to strike a chord with them and they almost universally end up \n> understanding about freedom of the GPL kind is usually a big help. The \n> fact that some have other biases don't make them worse journalists. It \n> just means that you see different kinds of stories from them.\n\nBtw, I actually in many ways prefer the critical ones over the positive \nones, which may be one reason I actually appreciate Dan Lyons even though \nobviously a lot of people don't. I find it interesting to see what the \nother side thinks, even if it's often something you know is wrong.\n\nThe fact is, journalists seldom get any tech story really right. If they \ndid, they'd be technical people. You can react to it two ways: either \nrealize that some people see it that way (which can be illuminating - if \nonly because you might realize that stories you _believed_ in might not \nbe exactly true either) or just dismissing the story and the teller of the \nstory.\n\nYeah, I even watch Fox news occasionally. \n\nI think the news stories that disagree with our own beliefs are often the \nones that tell us the most. \n\nAdmittedly, sometimes they just tell us that people are idiots ;)\n\n\t\t\tLinus\n"},{"id":"14154","messageId":"43BB2098.6060309@citi.umich.edu","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601031546430.3668@g5.osdl.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Chuck Lever","fromEmail":"cel@citi.umich.edu","sentAt":"2006-01-04T01:10:48Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-04T01:10:48Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"cel@citi.umich.edu","avatar":null},"body":"Linus Torvalds wrote:\n> \n> On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Theodore Ts'o wrote:\n> \n>>I'm not aware of any positive articles ever written from Dan Lyons; if\n>>you know of any, feel free to send me the URL.\n> \n> \n> Well, here's one I know Dan researched..\n> \n> \thttp://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/0920/180_print.html\n> \n> The fact that you don't like the man, and that he's more critical than \n> over-the-top enthusiastic, hey. That doesn't make him unprofessional or \n> mean that he has no journalistic integrity. Being critical is way too \n> seldom seen, and as you admit, Lyons is by no means one-sidedly critical. \n> \n> So maybe his glass is half full. Still no reason to dismiss him.\n\nas one of the people featured in the \"peace love and paychecks\" article, \ni found the reporting to be surprisingly accurate (ie it could have been \nmuch much worse). i often tell people who ask me \"what do you do\" to \nread a copy of it. i haven't read any of his other pieces, though, so i \ncan't really comment on bias or accuracy over the body of his work.\n\n\nbegin:vcard\nfn:Chuck Lever\nn:Lever;Chuck\norg:Network Appliance, Incorporated;Open Source NFS Client Engineering\nemail;internet:cel@citi.umich.edu\ntitle:Member of Technical Staff\nx-mozilla-html:FALSE\nurl:http://www.monkey.org/~cel/\nversion:2.1\nend:vcard\n\n"},{"id":"14158","messageId":"20060104034515.GA30049@kroah.com","threadId":"2955","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.64.0601031546430.3668@g5.osdl.org","subject":"Re: [OT] Shameless troll ;o)","fromName":"Greg KH","fromEmail":"greg@kroah.com","sentAt":"2006-01-04T03:45:16Z","receivedAt":"2006-01-04T03:45:16Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"greg@kroah.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/5bb5aa0cc2e01c00ec899d11130c07796bc186e465bae57bc34873b13b72c7c8?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Tue, Jan 03, 2006 at 03:55:11PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:\n> On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Theodore Ts'o wrote:\n> > I'm not actually aware of any bad experience IBM had with Mr. Lyons,\n> > and I'm not aware of any \"don't talk to Dan Lyons\" warning from\n> > management, other than the standard rules requesting IBM engineers not\n> > talk with _any_ journalist or analyst without first clearing things\n> > with press or analyst relations --- but that's pretty standard for any\n> > large corporation.\n\nIf you ask IBM PR, I'm sure they will be able to give you the reasons\nthey don't allow IBM employees to talk to Dan.\n\n> Yes. And when trying to clear it with IBM legal, Greg KH was told not to \n> talk to Dan Lyons. \n\nYeah, and because I wasn't allowed to talk to him, he wrote a funny\n(well, funny to me at least) article about how IBM was muzzling their\nLinux developers. It was quite accurate, and I've not had any problems\nin dealing with him since I left IBM (probably due to my current\nemployer allowing me to talk to him...)\n\nthanks,\n\ngreg k-h\n"}]}