{"thread":{"id":"28386","subject":"Helping on Git development","startedAt":"2011-09-14T03:05:56Z","lastAt":"2011-09-15T17:21:47Z","messageCount":10,"participants":["Eduardo D'Avila","Andrew Ardill","Junio C Hamano","Jonathan Nieder","Jeff King"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"175450","messageId":"CAOz-D1+77JZRXa57GLz=vZyrcGs4Ojj6Wa0cSD4QcEkMP3PPsA@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"CAOz-D1JW8RSR8kVWhT7v-DCbWayU8KhbePJwWrWvJwbmueRezQ@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Helping on Git development","fromName":"Eduardo D'Avila","fromEmail":"erdavila@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-09-14T03:05:56Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-14T03:05:56Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"erdavila@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/341488?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nI have being using Git for some time now and I am very satisfied with it.\nNow I'm considering giving back by helping on its development.\nIs there any bug listing which I can check if there is some point I can help?\nAny suggestions on other ways to help are also welcomed. :-)\n\nThanks,\n\nEduardo R. D'Avila\n"},{"id":"175451","messageId":"CAH5451me+MDe34Boak=UDjH9T_WAnO6wxa6pW+JHOoGADoNfkQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"CAOz-D1+77JZRXa57GLz=vZyrcGs4Ojj6Wa0cSD4QcEkMP3PPsA@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Andrew Ardill","fromEmail":"andrew.ardill@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-09-14T05:16:32Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-14T05:16:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"andrew.ardill@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/da14cb7c091dd44dc6c63a4d3361b149acaf25226dc78eb4131a17b93d9b0993?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On 14 September 2011 13:05, Eduardo D'Avila wrote:\n> Hi,\n>\n> I have being using Git for some time now and I am very satisfied with it.\n> Now I'm considering giving back by helping on its development.\n> Is there any bug listing which I can check if there is some point I can help?\n> Any suggestions on other ways to help are also welcomed. :-)\n\nHi Eduardo, as stated in the README,\n\nThe messages titled \"A note from the maintainer\", \"What's in git.git\n(stable)\" and \"What's cooking in git.git (topics)\" and the discussion\nfollowing them on the mailing list give a good reference for project\nstatus, development direction and remaining tasks.\n\nAdditionally, I think the README should include something like\n\nIf you are looking to contribute to the project, a good place to start\nis http://git-blame.blogspot.com/p/note-from-maintainer.html and in\nDocumentation/howto/maintain-git.txt\n\nbecause it took me forever to find them, and contributing will be\ndifficult until you have read them.\n\nRegards,\n\nAndrew Ardill\n"},{"id":"175489","messageId":"7vehzjugdz.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"CAH5451me+MDe34Boak=UDjH9T_WAnO6wxa6pW+JHOoGADoNfkQ@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2011-09-14T18:29:28Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-14T18:29:28Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Andrew Ardill writes:\n\n> On 14 September 2011 13:05, Eduardo D'Avila wrote:\n>> Hi,\n>>\n>> I have being using Git for some time now and I am very satisfied with it.\n>> Now I'm considering giving back by helping on its development.\n>> Is there any bug listing which I can check if there is some point I can help?\n>> Any suggestions on other ways to help are also welcomed. :-)\n>\n> Hi Eduardo, as stated in the README,\n>\n> The messages titled \"A note from the maintainer\", \"What's in git.git\n> (stable)\" and \"What's cooking in git.git (topics)\" and the discussion\n> following them on the mailing list give a good reference for project\n> status, development direction and remaining tasks.\n>\n> Additionally, I think the README should include something like\n>\n> If you are looking to contribute to the project, a good place to start\n> is http://git-blame.blogspot.com/p/note-from-maintainer.html and in\n> Documentation/howto/maintain-git.txt\n\nI am moderately averse to hardcoding that URL that is guaranteed not to\nsurvive the maintainer change in our README file. The howto/maintain-git\ndocument mentions the periodical \"A note from the maintainer\" posting to\nthe list that has the same text, which is a more appropriate reference.\n\nAs to contributing to the project, right now, I think we have enough\npeople who want to write code and documentation for Git, but what we lack\nare bandwidth to (this is not meant to be an exhaustive list):\n\n - review the patches on the list and help perfecting them;\n\n - distilling random wishes from the end user community while winnowing\n chaffs that are unrealistic or do not fit well with the grand scheme of\n things, to come up with a concrete proposal and a patch series to move\n the discussions forward in a productive way;\n\n - \"on boarding\" new contributors, helping them to become a useful member\n of the community, teaching how to write a good bug report and how to\n sell a new feature (i.e. \"the perfect patch\");\n\n - dig list archives to point people at age-old discussions to non-issues\n that have long been resolved to squelch noise; and\n\n - remind original submitter, people who were involved in the discussion,\n and people who should have been involved but who weren't, of a worthy\n but stalled topics from time to time.\n\nThe first two need to come from more experienced folks whose judgement I\ncan trust (iow, not a newbie task). Others are \"project secretary\" tasks\nthat can be helped by anybody who is good at tracking things, perhaps\nexcept for the last one that needs a good taste when judging which topic\nis worthy of reminders.\n"},{"id":"175515","messageId":"20110914213202.GA20473@elie","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"7vehzjugdz.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Jonathan Nieder","fromEmail":"jrnieder@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-09-14T21:32:03Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-14T21:32:03Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jrnieder@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/281595?v=4"},"body":"Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> As to contributing to the project, right now, I think we have enough\n> people who want to write code and documentation for Git, but what we lack\n> are bandwidth to (this is not meant to be an exhaustive list):\n[...]\n> - distilling random wishes from the end user community while winnowing\n> chaffs that are unrealistic or do not fit well with the grand scheme of\n> things, to come up with a concrete proposal and a patch series\n[...]\n> - dig list archives to point people at age-old discussions to non-issues\n> that have long been resolved to squelch noise; and\n>\n> - remind original submitter, people who were involved in the discussion,\n> and people who should have been involved but who weren't, of a worthy\n> but stalled topics from time to time.\n\nI also should (reluctantly) mention that the Debian bug tracker has\nbeen accepting bugs from outsiders and provides a service like this.\nCaveats:\n\n - it only tracks bugs that affect Debian (usually meaning\n platform-independent bugs). Occasionally bugs from Windows users\n have been reported there and it's been okay.\n\n - the interface might seem quirky if you're not used to it.\n Documentation is at http://www.debian.org/Bugs/\n\n - no guarantee of a quick response. When there is a response,\n usually it is \"here are some thoughts; now let's take this to\n git@vger.kernel.org\".\n\n - if the bugtracker gets swamped with reports from outside without\n manpower to match, the policy re bugs from outside Debian might\n change.\n\nBug listing: [1].\nTo subscribe to receive bug reports by email: [2].\n\nThoughts welcome, as always.\nJonathan\n\n[1] http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=git;include=tags:upstream;exclude=tags:fixed-upstream;exclude=tags:moreinfo;exclude=severity:wishlist\n[2] http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/resources.html#pts-commands\nSummary: an email to pts@qa.debian.org whose body contains the two\nlines \"subscribe git\", \"keyword git = bts\" would do the trick.\n"},{"id":"175521","messageId":"20110914231427.GA5611@sigill.intra.peff.net","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"7vehzjugdz.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2011-09-14T23:14:27Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-14T23:14:27Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:29:28AM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> As to contributing to the project, right now, I think we have enough\n> people who want to write code and documentation for Git, but what we lack\n> are bandwidth to (this is not meant to be an exhaustive list):\n\nIs there such a thing as enough coders? :)\n\nTwo things that got me started on git, and that I think are still\nrelevant today:\n\n 1. Scratch your own itch. Surely git doesn't do something that you\n wish it did. Or did it faster. Or whatever. Try to dig up past\n discussions on the list to make sure you're not doing something\n that has already been tried and rejected, and then start hacking.\n Your patches may be terrible at first, but I think there are people\n willing to guide you if you actually have running code.\n\n 2. Read the list. People will report bugs. Try reproducing them,\n bisecting them, creating minimal test cases, narrowing the issues\n down to certain configurations or a certain bit of code, etc.\n Sometimes that will lead you to propose a solution. Sometimes\n you'll just add to the discussion, and then somebody with more\n familiarity can pick up the topic from there. But you'll have\n helped them by doing some of the work, and you'll have learned more\n about how git works.\n\n-Peff\n"},{"id":"175526","messageId":"7vd3f2snox.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"20110914231427.GA5611@sigill.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2011-09-14T23:34:38Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-14T23:34:38Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Jeff King writes:\n\n> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:29:28AM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>\n>> As to contributing to the project, right now, I think we have enough\n>> people who want to write code and documentation for Git, but what we lack\n>> are bandwidth to (this is not meant to be an exhaustive list):\n>\n> Is there such a thing as enough coders? :)\n\nEver heard of the Mythical Man-Month ;-)?\n\nI thought it was clear from my message but probably I wasn't clear enough,\nso let's make it clear. I didn't mean to ay \"we have enough -- we need no\nmore -- we reject new applicants\".\n\nI was simply saying that there already are many people who scratch his own\nreal itch, and we are short of the bandwidth to review them all. It would\nnot help the project at all to add more people who scratch some random\nnon-itches that nobody is actually interested in (e.g. an entry in an\nunmaintained \"bug tracker\" that may list irrelevant and stale non issues).\n\n> 2. Read the list. People will report bugs. Try reproducing them,\n> bisecting them, creating minimal test cases, narrowing the issues\n> down to certain configurations or a certain bit of code, etc.\n> Sometimes that will lead you to propose a solution. Sometimes\n> you'll just add to the discussion, and then somebody with more\n> familiarity can pick up the topic from there. But you'll have\n> helped them by doing some of the work, and you'll have learned more\n> about how git works.\n\nYes. In the earlier steps in the above, you may find out that the report\nwas actually not a bug at all (e.g. old issue that has long been fixed,\npebcak, or wrong expectation), but even in such a case, reporting your\nfinding would help others.\n"},{"id":"175529","messageId":"20110915000851.GA6238@sigill.intra.peff.net","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"7vd3f2snox.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2011-09-15T00:08:51Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-15T00:08:51Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 04:34:38PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> > Is there such a thing as enough coders? :)\n> \n> Ever heard of the Mythical Man-Month ;-)?\n\nI thought git was a silver bullet. :)\n\n> I was simply saying that there already are many people who scratch his\n> own real itch, and we are short of the bandwidth to review them all.\n> It would not help the project at all to add more people who scratch\n> some random non-itches that nobody is actually interested in (e.g. an\n> entry in an unmaintained \"bug tracker\" that may list irrelevant and\n> stale non issues).\n\nYeah, that may be. But I don't look at it as \"we have enough\nitch-scratchers, so we don't need more\". I see it as survival of the\nfittest. You may post a patch series that needs a lot of help, but\nnobody else cares, and it dies off. Or your series may be interesting\nenough that it draws attention, to the detriment of somebody else's\nseries (which may take longer to get reviewed and merged). But natural\nselection only works if we have a diverse population to select from.\n\nThe downside, of course, is that somebody may end up wasting time going\ndown a fruitless road. But for a new contributor, hopefully they learn\nsomething in the process.\n\n> > 2. Read the list. People will report bugs. Try reproducing them,\n> [...]\n> \n> Yes. In the earlier steps in the above, you may find out that the\n> report was actually not a bug at all (e.g. old issue that has long\n> been fixed, pebcak, or wrong expectation), but even in such a case,\n> reporting your finding would help others.\n\nVery much agreed. I think big organizations like mozilla have people who\ndo nothing but bug triage. We are not that big, but it has proven to be\none area that is easy to break out and distribute to other people.\n\n-Peff\n"},{"id":"175554","messageId":"CAH5451n=yEYYb0jO85+5_0dkuupQA2_WLvnH-fwPESS1GWy4Sg@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"20110915000851.GA6238@sigill.intra.peff.net","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Andrew Ardill","fromEmail":"andrew.ardill@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-09-15T06:24:22Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-15T06:24:22Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"andrew.ardill@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/da14cb7c091dd44dc6c63a4d3361b149acaf25226dc78eb4131a17b93d9b0993?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On 15 September 2011 10:08, Jeff King wrote:\n> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 04:34:38PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>\n>> > Is there such a thing as enough coders? :)\n>>\n>> Ever heard of the Mythical Man-Month ;-)?\n>\n> I thought git was a silver bullet. :)\n>\n>> I was simply saying that there already are many people who scratch his\n>> own real itch, and we are short of the bandwidth to review them all.\n>> It would not help the project at all to add more people who scratch\n>> some random non-itches that nobody is actually interested in (e.g. an\n>> entry in an unmaintained \"bug tracker\" that may list irrelevant and\n>> stale non issues).\n>\n> Yeah, that may be. But I don't look at it as \"we have enough\n> itch-scratchers, so we don't need more\". I see it as survival of the\n> fittest. You may post a patch series that needs a lot of help, but\n> nobody else cares, and it dies off. Or your series may be interesting\n> enough that it draws attention, to the detriment of somebody else's\n> series (which may take longer to get reviewed and merged). But natural\n> selection only works if we have a diverse population to select from.\n>\n> The downside, of course, is that somebody may end up wasting time going\n> down a fruitless road. But for a new contributor, hopefully they learn\n> something in the process.\n>\n>> >   2. Read the list. People will report bugs. Try reproducing them,\n>> [...]\n>>\n>> Yes. In the earlier steps in the above, you may find out that the\n>> report was actually not a bug at all (e.g. old issue that has long\n>> been fixed, pebcak, or wrong expectation), but even in such a case,\n>> reporting your finding would help others.\n>\n> Very much agreed. I think big organizations like mozilla have people who\n> do nothing but bug triage. We are not that big, but it has proven to be\n> one area that is easy to break out and distribute to other people.\n>\n> -Peff\n>\n\nDoes git even have an issue tracker? I have not seen one anywhere.\n\n>> If you are looking to contribute to the project, a good place to start\n>> is http://git-blame.blogspot.com/p/note-from-maintainer.html and in\n>> Documentation/howto/maintain-git.txt\n>\n> I am moderately averse to hardcoding that URL that is guaranteed not to\n> survive the maintainer change in our README file. The howto/maintain-git\n> document mentions the periodical \"A note from the maintainer\" posting to\n> the list that has the same text, which is a more appropriate reference.\n\nWould a link to the wiki be more appropriate? Perhaps even a 'getting\nstarted' page that collates information like this?\n\nAt the moment, while it is easy enough to find the information needed\nto understand how the project fits together if you know where to look,\nthere isn't any concise summation of roles and pain points. The note\nfrom the maintainer goes over the procedures fairly well, and the\nwhat's cooking gives a good idea of what features are being worked on,\nbut it seems a little disconnected.\n\nWhen kernel.org comes back online I may have a go at creating such a\npage. Any thoughts?\n\nAndrew\n"},{"id":"175586","messageId":"7v4o0dreiy.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"CAH5451n=yEYYb0jO85+5_0dkuupQA2_WLvnH-fwPESS1GWy4Sg@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2011-09-15T15:50:13Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-15T15:50:13Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Andrew Ardill writes:\n\n>> I am moderately averse to hardcoding that URL that is guaranteed not to\n>> survive the maintainer change in our README file. The howto/maintain-git\n>> document mentions the periodical \"A note from the maintainer\" posting to\n>> the list that has the same text, which is a more appropriate reference.\n>\n> Would a link to the wiki be more appropriate? Perhaps even a 'getting\n> started' page that collates information like this?\n> ...\n> When kernel.org comes back online I may have a go at creating such a\n> page. Any thoughts?\n\n\"Getting started\" that describes how they got started, collectively\nmaintained by people who got started recently, may serve as a good guide\nfor people who follow. And if it is done as a wiki, you are free to create\nand update without asking permission from the community ;-).\n"},{"id":"175591","messageId":"20110915172147.GA20396@sigill.intra.peff.net","threadId":"28386","inReplyTo":"CAH5451n=yEYYb0jO85+5_0dkuupQA2_WLvnH-fwPESS1GWy4Sg@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Helping on Git development","fromName":"Jeff King","fromEmail":"peff@peff.net","sentAt":"2011-09-15T17:21:47Z","receivedAt":"2011-09-15T17:21:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"peff@peff.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/45925?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, Sep 15, 2011 at 04:24:22PM +1000, Andrew Ardill wrote:\n\n> Does git even have an issue tracker? I have not seen one anywhere.\n\nNo. The general philosophy so far has been that the mailing list serves\nthe same purpose, and that if messages go by without comment on the\nlist, it's probably because they weren't that interesting to people\n(i.e., in a bug tracker, they would have also sat untouched).\n\nThat being said, the mailing list is free-form, which can make it harder\nto search and analyze. Something that organizes the information like a\nbug tracker could be useful, but only if somebody (or somebodies) is\ndedicated to keeping the information up to date and free of cruft.\n\n-Peff\n"}]}