{"thread":{"id":"27401","subject":"plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","startedAt":"2011-05-18T22:03:49Z","lastAt":"2011-05-19T20:42:42Z","messageCount":17,"participants":["Eugene Sajine","J.H.","David Miller","ellis@spinics.net","david@lang.hm","Junio C Hamano","Tim Mazid","Randal L. Schwartz","David Brown"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"168164","messageId":"BANLkTik5g+oahTuTZ5BSOunQMfzGNRZ-7Q@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Eugene Sajine","fromEmail":"euguess@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-05-18T22:03:49Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T22:03:49Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"euguess@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"hi,\n\nDue to the existing policy about plain text only messages accepted by\nthe list it is impossible to send an email from any mobile device\nusing gmail native app. The problem is that Google for some reason\ndoesn't include plain text email sending as a configurable feature in\nAndroid v2+ and only sends multipart HTML and plain text messages from\nAndroid 3.1+ devices (AKA Honeycomb tablets)\n\nThe necessity to use the desktop in order to send a message to the\nlist is annoying and not quite contemporary.\n\nIn the same time this policy doesn't seem to cut off SPAM effectively\nas I'm getting plenty of different emails of stupid nature with git\nmajordomo or whatever it is signature inside.\n\nCan the filter be made smarter to accept at least the messages from\nHoneycomb devices 3.1+?\nIs there any other steps that can be made to make the list more mobile-friendly?\n\n\nThanks,\nEugene\n"},{"id":"168165","messageId":"4DD4452B.4030206@eaglescrag.net","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"BANLkTik5g+oahTuTZ5BSOunQMfzGNRZ-7Q@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"J.H.","fromEmail":"warthog9@eaglescrag.net","sentAt":"2011-05-18T22:16:11Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T22:16:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"warthog9@kernel.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2334704?v=4"},"body":"On 05/18/2011 03:03 PM, Eugene Sajine wrote:\n[...]\n> Due to the existing policy about plain text only messages accepted by\n> the list it is impossible to send an email from any mobile device\n> using gmail native app. The problem is that Google for some reason\n> doesn't include plain text email sending as a configurable feature in\n> Android v2+ and only sends multipart HTML and plain text messages from\n> Android 3.1+ devices (AKA Honeycomb tablets)\n\nThat sounds mostly like a bug in the mail client you are using. K-9\nMail for instance allows for this. I'd report the lack of plain text to\nyour e-mail client provider, I.E. Google.\n\n> The necessity to use the desktop in order to send a message to the\n> list is annoying and not quite contemporary.\n\nNot to be snarky or anything, but the \"contemporary\" thing these days is\nto use forums and twitter, which really don't make good development arenas.\n\n> In the same time this policy doesn't seem to cut off SPAM effectively\n> as I'm getting plenty of different emails of stupid nature with git\n> majordomo or whatever it is signature inside.\n\nThat is a war that the side of \"good\" will ultimately lose at though,\nSPAM will win no matter what we do, we just have to hold off as much as\nwe can.\n\n> Can the filter be made smarter to accept at least the messages from\n> Honeycomb devices 3.1+?\n> Is there any other steps that can be made to make the list more mobile-friendly?\n\nAsking on the list isn't going to be all that helpful, if for no other\nreason than the actual list administrators aren't on it. My guess is\nthat the answer is going to be 'no' or to use a mail client that\nproperly supports plain-text, like K-9 for instance.\n\nThat said I've CC'ed postmaster so that your concerns are actually seen\nby the people who might be able to help you, or at least explain the\nreasons behind what's going on better.\n\n- John 'Warthog9' Hawley\n"},{"id":"168171","messageId":"201105182217.p4IMHIk2001872@amd.spinics.net","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"BANLkTik5g+oahTuTZ5BSOunQMfzGNRZ-7Q@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"","fromEmail":"ellis@spinics.net","sentAt":"2011-05-18T22:17:18Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T22:17:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ellis@spinics.net","avatar":null},"body":"> The necessity to use the desktop in order to send a message to the\n> list is annoying and not quite contemporary.\n\nSo the list should change just because your mail client is broken?\n\n--\nhttp://yosemitenews.info/\n"},{"id":"168166","messageId":"20110518.181913.1956594800446562498.davem@davemloft.net","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"4DD4452B.4030206@eaglescrag.net","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"David Miller","fromEmail":"davem@davemloft.net","sentAt":"2011-05-18T22:19:13Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T22:19:13Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"davem@davemloft.net","avatar":null},"body":"From: \"J.H.\" \nDate: Wed, 18 May 2011 15:16:11 -0700\n\n> Asking on the list isn't going to be all that helpful, if for no other\n> reason than the actual list administrators aren't on it. My guess is\n> that the answer is going to be 'no' or to use a mail client that\n> properly supports plain-text, like K-9 for instance.\n\nThis policy is definitely not changing, plain text only.\n\nFix your email client.\n"},{"id":"168167","messageId":"BANLkTika1yLzhuaijnzjTL2fkiULFoEztQ@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"201105182217.p4IMHIk2001872@amd.spinics.net","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Eugene Sajine","fromEmail":"euguess@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-05-18T22:25:40Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T22:25:40Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"euguess@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"I would put it like this. It is not only my client but the default\nclient of an army of different devices. And while i do agree it might\nbe considered broken, i was looking for possibility to accommodate\nthose devices without affecting the list's spam protection mechanisms.\n\nOn Wed, May 18, 2011 at 6:17 PM, wrote:\n>> The necessity to use the desktop in order to send a message to the\n>> list is annoying and not quite contemporary.\n>\n> So the list should change just because your mail client is broken?\n>\n> --\n> http://yosemitenews.info/\n>\n"},{"id":"168168","messageId":"BANLkTikV-hYg=5P=ZFQSAWy6hbDe=UVVHg@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"BANLkTika1yLzhuaijnzjTL2fkiULFoEztQ@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Eugene Sajine","fromEmail":"euguess@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-05-18T22:27:37Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T22:27:37Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"euguess@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Eugene Sajine wrote:\n> I would put it like this. It is not only my client but the default\n> client of an army of different devices. And while i do agree it might\n> be considered broken, i was looking for possibility to accommodate\n> those devices without affecting the list's spam protection mechanisms.\n>\n> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 6:17 PM,   wrote:\n>>> The necessity to use the desktop in order to send a message to the\n>>> list is annoying and not quite contemporary.\n>>\n>> So the list should change just because your mail client is broken?\n>>\n>> --\n>> http://yosemitenews.info/\n>>\n>\n\nsorry for top post and please read\n\"i would put it\" as \"I wouldn't put it\"\n\nThanks,\nEugene\n"},{"id":"168169","messageId":"BANLkTimmsHG_tV8jK139a131q-y-aywGVg@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"20110518.181913.1956594800446562498.davem@davemloft.net","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Eugene Sajine","fromEmail":"euguess@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-05-18T22:30:09Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T22:30:09Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"euguess@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 6:19 PM, David Miller wrote:\n> From: \"J.H.\" \n> Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 15:16:11 -0700\n>\n>> Asking on the list isn't going to be all that helpful, if for no other\n>> reason than the actual list administrators aren't on it.  My guess is\n>> that the answer is going to be 'no' or to use a mail client that\n>> properly supports plain-text, like K-9 for instance.\n>\n> This policy is definitely not changing, plain text only.\n>\n> Fix your email client.\n>\n>\n\nThat sounded grumpy - did i step on a blister?\nI'm going to fix the GMAIL right now;)\n\nAnyway thanks for the prompt answer.\n\nEugene\n"},{"id":"168172","messageId":"alpine.DEB.2.02.1105181612310.12174@asgard.lang.hm","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"201105182217.p4IMHIk2001872@amd.spinics.net","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"","fromEmail":"david@lang.hm","sentAt":"2011-05-18T23:14:51Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T23:14:51Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"david@lang.hm","avatar":null},"body":"On Wed, 18 May 2011, ellis@spinics.net wrote:\n\n>> The necessity to use the desktop in order to send a message to the\n>> list is annoying and not quite contemporary.\n>\n> So the list should change just because your mail client is broken?\n\nif the client is sending out multipart mail with both a HTML and a text \nportion, then having the list accept the text portion and strip the HTML \nportion off seems like a reasonable request.\n\nI am very much a text e-mail person (I use pine almost exclusivly), but \nthis doesn't seem that bad.\n\nDavid Lang\n"},{"id":"168173","messageId":"201105182322.p4INMOtH007490@amd.spinics.net","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.2.02.1105181612310.12174@asgard.lang.hm","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile","fromName":"","fromEmail":"ellis@spinics.net","sentAt":"2011-05-18T23:22:24Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T23:22:24Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"ellis@spinics.net","avatar":null},"body":"> if the client is sending out multipart mail with both a HTML and a text \n> portion, then having the list accept the text portion and strip the HTML \n> portion off seems like a reasonable request.\n\nReasonable, or no, it would involve changes in the way vger\nhandles the mailing lists and that is very unlikely to happen.\nThese lists have a long tradition of being plain text and there\nis also a long tradition of not changing how things work just\nbecause somebody comes along with a broken client. IMNSHO changing\nthe list to fix a broken client will only serve to encourage\nmore broken clients. And that would not be a Good Thing.\n\n--\nhttp://yosemitephotos.net/\n"},{"id":"168174","messageId":"7v39kbbn7h.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"BANLkTik5g+oahTuTZ5BSOunQMfzGNRZ-7Q@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2011-05-18T23:31:14Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T23:31:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Please send such requests to the list admins at vger.kernel.org directly.\nI do not think people that are active on this list do not have much\ninfluence on the filtering policy, and also I suspect not many list admins\nread this list to trawl for request like this.\n\nHaving said that, I personally would not want to see non-text messages\nmyself, even though I often find myself not having any access to the list\nbut via gmail and I find it quite limiting. But I tend to consider that\nnot allowing pure text messages is a gmail bug/misfeature and needs to be\nfixed not by allowing html cruft on the list, but by enabling poor gmail\nusers to send pure text when they want to.\n\nYes, I sit in Mountain View, but I suspect that pure text messages are not\nanywhere near the top of the task list of the people who run gmail, and I\nknow I do not have much influence on that matter, either.\n"},{"id":"168176","messageId":"SNT124-W27DCB71A6E01DD346703AFC48F0@phx.gbl","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"201105182322.p4INMOtH007490@amd.spinics.net","subject":"RE: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile","fromName":"Tim Mazid","fromEmail":"timmazid@hotmail.com","sentAt":"2011-05-18T23:31:40Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-18T23:31:40Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"timmazid@hotmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"\n> From: ellis@spinics.net\n> Subject: Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile\n> To: git@vger.kernel.org\n> Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:22:24 -0700\n>\n> > if the client is sending out multipart mail with both a HTML and a text\n> > portion, then having the list accept the text portion and strip the HTML\n> > portion off seems like a reasonable request.\n>\n> Reasonable, or no, it would involve changes in the way vger\n> handles the mailing lists and that is very unlikely to happen.\n> These lists have a long tradition of being plain text and there\n> is also a long tradition of not changing how things work just\n> because somebody comes along with a broken client. IMNSHO changing\n> the list to fix a broken client will only serve to encourage\n> more broken clients. And that would not be a Good Thing.\n>\n\nI'm afraid I must concur. Whilst people are free to use whatever clients \nthey wish, if vger opens the gates now, you'll have people thinking that \nif they whine enough, they can get their broken client supported.\n\nUnnecessary work; and it would encourage broken clients.\n\n\n() ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail\n/\\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments\n \t\t \t \t\t "},{"id":"168206","messageId":"86sjsbdj5v.fsf@red.stonehenge.com","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"7v39kbbn7h.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Randal L. Schwartz","fromEmail":"merlyn@stonehenge.com","sentAt":"2011-05-19T11:27:56Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-19T11:27:56Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"merlyn@stonehenge.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/dc528d210743ff0333e6213f9ee7b33b23f1b7bc1f3c5a8c2d819074ecd7ab19?d=mp&s=160"},"body":">>>>> \"Junio\" == Junio C Hamano writes:\n\nJunio> Please send such requests to the list admins at vger.kernel.org\nJunio> directly. I do not think people that are active on this list do\nJunio> not have much influence on the filtering policy, and also I\nJunio> suspect not many list admins read this list to trawl for request\nJunio> like this.\n\nJunio! You underestimate the power of bikeshedding!\n\n:-)\n\n-- \nRandal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095\n \nSmalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.\nSee http://methodsandmessages.posterous.com/ for Smalltalk discussion\n"},{"id":"168215","messageId":"BANLkTimBxPKx1gWeeyk3YgAd4R-XtyQv3Q@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.2.02.1105181612310.12174@asgard.lang.hm","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Eugene Sajine","fromEmail":"euguess@gmail.com","sentAt":"2011-05-19T14:33:56Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-19T14:33:56Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"euguess@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 7:14 PM, wrote:\n> On Wed, 18 May 2011, ellis@spinics.net wrote:\n>\n>>> The necessity to use the desktop in order to send a message to the\n>>> list is annoying and not quite contemporary.\n>>\n>> So the list should change just because your mail client is broken?\n>\n> if the client is sending out multipart mail with both a HTML and a text\n> portion, then having the list accept the text portion and strip the HTML\n> portion off seems like a reasonable request.\n>\n> I am very much a text e-mail person (I use pine almost exclusivly), but this\n> doesn't seem that bad.\n>\n> David Lang\n>\n\nThat is exactly what I'm thinking about.\nIMHO multipart message is completely valid format and list could\npreserve its integrity by just pulling out the plain text part of the\nmessage.\nAnd it doesn't matter which client I'm using and if it is broken or not.\nI think that the gmail client of android 2+ and 3.0+ is in fact broken\nin that regard, but the one from 3.1+ is not. That's is why i was not\nasking about \"openning up the gates for broken clients\" and allowing\nHTML content. I'm talking specifically about 3.1+ android versions\nthat will inherit this gmail client behavior and they are coming soon.\n\nNow I posted this to the list for few reasons:\n1. If only one person contacts list admins about such matter - he will\nget the answer i got up in the thread. Within a blink of an eye.\n2. I wanted to run it by list to understand if there are others who\nare annoyed by the way this policy works and to get their input. Do\nthey think the list could accommodate the multipart messages or they\njust using some other clients or they just don't care.\n\nAs of now i see the majority doesn't care, so it is up to me to decide\nhow I'm going to work with this.\n\nMany thanks for the feedback about this bikeshedding issue.\n\nEugene\n"},{"id":"168226","messageId":"7vei3u8vi7.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"BANLkTimBxPKx1gWeeyk3YgAd4R-XtyQv3Q@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2011-05-19T17:12:32Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-19T17:12:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Eugene Sajine writes:\n\n> As of now i see the majority doesn't care, so it is up to me to decide\n> how I'm going to work with this.\n\nI only comment on this part. The way I read this thread is not that the\nmajority doesn't care.\n\nThe majority deeply cares about keeping the list free of HTML cruft, much\nmore than they care about making it easier for people who sometimes (or\nalways) cannot send anything but HTML-mixed messages [*1*]. \n\n[Footnote]\n\n*1* This includes me, who often has only an Android tablet while on a bus,\nwanting to give advice to a poster on the list. I usually just send the\nreply only to the original poster without bothering the rest of the list,\nor wait until I get to somewhere I have access to a better MUA.\n"},{"id":"168228","messageId":"8ya4o4qlhxa.fsf@huya.qualcomm.com","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"7v39kbbn7h.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"David Brown","fromEmail":"davidb@codeaurora.org","sentAt":"2011-05-19T17:27:29Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-19T17:27:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"davidb@codeaurora.org","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1bacedec21621bd4efa4bc8ecb05c507f0cf0641ecdaa50943c2ed21c8ef22d8?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Wed, May 18 2011, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> But I tend to consider that not allowing pure text messages is a gmail\n> bug/misfeature and needs to be fixed not by allowing html cruft on the\n> list, but by enabling poor gmail users to send pure text when they\n> want to.\n\nDoesn't clicking on \"Plain text\" work? There are several people on lkml\n(includng Linus, I believe) who use gmail.\n\nThere doesn't appear to be a way to make it the default, which is\nannoying, but it is possible.\n\nDavid\n\n-- \nSent by an employee of the Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc.\nThe Qualcomm Innovation Center, Inc. is a member of the Code Aurora Forum.\n"},{"id":"168233","messageId":"7vtycq7g04.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"8ya4o4qlhxa.fsf@huya.qualcomm.com","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2011-05-19T17:32:43Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-19T17:32:43Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"David Brown writes:\n\n> On Wed, May 18 2011, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>\n>> But I tend to consider that not allowing pure text messages is a gmail\n>> bug/misfeature and needs to be fixed not by allowing html cruft on the\n>> list, but by enabling poor gmail users to send pure text when they\n>> want to.\n>\n> Doesn't clicking on \"Plain text\" work? There are several people on lkml\n> (includng Linus, I believe) who use gmail.\n\nThe WebMail interface let's you do that, but that is not what is discussed\nhere (see the original message from Eugene).\n\nOn phones and Honeycomb tablet, no. The app gives \"Reply Inline\" and\n\"Include Original\" control, and when both are active, the user is fooled\ninto thinking it would be sent in the text/plain, but it always seems to\nsend mixed.\n"},{"id":"168258","messageId":"alpine.DEB.2.02.1105191341280.30095@asgard.lang.hm","threadId":"27401","inReplyTo":"7vei3u8vi7.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: plain text only policy prohibits the use of android based mobile devices","fromName":"","fromEmail":"david@lang.hm","sentAt":"2011-05-19T20:42:42Z","receivedAt":"2011-05-19T20:42:42Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"david@lang.hm","avatar":null},"body":"\nOn Thu, 19 May 2011, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> Eugene Sajine writes:\n>\n>> As of now i see the majority doesn't care, so it is up to me to decide\n>> how I'm going to work with this.\n>\n> I only comment on this part. The way I read this thread is not that the\n> majority doesn't care.\n>\n> The majority deeply cares about keeping the list free of HTML cruft, much\n> more than they care about making it easier for people who sometimes (or\n> always) cannot send anything but HTML-mixed messages [*1*].\n\nto be clear, I also want to keep HTML cruft off the list.\n\nbut if a message is being sent in a multipart format of both HTML and \ntext, I think it is reasonable to strip out the HTML part and send the \ntext part on to the list.\n\nDavid Lang\n"}]}