{"thread":{"id":"21871","subject":"Gui criticism","startedAt":"2009-12-05T18:51:14Z","lastAt":"2009-12-08T07:12:28Z","messageCount":8,"participants":["Ram Rachum","Michael J Gruber","Felipe Contreras","Martin Langhoff","Junio C Hamano","Marco Costalba"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"129279","messageId":"loom.20091205T194800-496@post.gmane.org","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"Gui criticism","fromName":"Ram Rachum","fromEmail":"cool-rr@cool-rr.com","sentAt":"2009-12-05T18:51:14Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-05T18:51:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"cool-rr@cool-rr.com","avatar":null},"body":"Hello!\n\nThis is my first time on this list. I'm a Python developer who's been using git \nfor about a year. I generally like it, but I have several gripes about the GUI. \n(My development machine is on Windows XP.) Would specifying these criticisms be \nhelpful to you?\n\nBest Wishes,\nRam Rachum.\n"},{"id":"129281","messageId":"4B1AB39A.7080500@drmicha.warpmail.net","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":"loom.20091205T194800-496@post.gmane.org","subject":"Re: Gui criticism","fromName":"Michael J Gruber","fromEmail":"git@drmicha.warpmail.net","sentAt":"2009-12-05T19:25:14Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-05T19:25:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"git@grubix.eu","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/233215?v=4"},"body":"Ram Rachum venit, vidit, dixit 05.12.2009 19:51:\n> Hello!\n> \n> This is my first time on this list. I'm a Python developer who's been using git \n> for about a year. I generally like it, but I have several gripes about the GUI. \n> (My development machine is on Windows XP.) Would specifying these criticisms be \n> helpful to you?\n\nNo, unless they are specific bug reports.\n\nThe main problem is that we have too many GUIs, and the \"main\" ones are\nin tcl/tk which not many people write. So there's a small developer base\nfor the standard GUI, and the rest prefers to split up and each do their\nown GUI rather than work on a coordinated project. (I've tried to change\nthat before.)\n\nMichael\n"},{"id":"129282","messageId":"94a0d4530912051137u682a3a99ved9d19338b881b13@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":"loom.20091205T194800-496@post.gmane.org","subject":"Re: Gui criticism","fromName":"Felipe Contreras","fromEmail":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","sentAt":"2009-12-05T19:37:52Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-05T19:37:52Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8358?v=4"},"body":"Hello Ram,\n\nOn Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Ram Rachum wrote:\n> This is my first time on this list. I'm a Python developer who's been using git\n> for about a year. I generally like it, but I have several gripes about the GUI.\n> (My development machine is on Windows XP.) Would specifying these criticisms be\n> helpful to you?\n\nI don't think the mailing list is the best place for this, that's why\nI just started a project in SourceForge, so that users can post these\nkinds of issues in the ideatorrent:\nhttps://sourceforge.net/apps/ideatorrent/git-ux/ideatorrent/\n\nI haven't made the announcement yet, but soon :)\n\n-- \nFelipe Contreras\n"},{"id":"129284","messageId":"46a038f90912051151g41acfa11j3746d7a8bb6ed969@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":"94a0d4530912051137u682a3a99ved9d19338b881b13@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Gui criticism","fromName":"Martin Langhoff","fromEmail":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","sentAt":"2009-12-05T19:51:27Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-05T19:51:27Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1e3f311b6c4c15836501901ca58f8c0b0667246488084ba524d8bc9867e22fd9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Felipe Contreras\n wrote:\n> I don't think the mailing list is the best place for this\n\nMailing lists and face to face events are _the_ best places.\n\n> I just started a project in SourceForge\n\nA new project is for code. And the existing GUIs need help, your help,\nin the already existing mailing lists and codebases they have.\n\n>, so that users can post these\n> kinds of issues\n\nIn a safe place where developers won't read?\n\n> I haven't made the announcement yet, but soon :)\n\nHow about picking an existing git GUI project you're prepared to help,\nand... just... help? Code, documentation, screen mockups, graphic art?\nIs it too... normal? Maybe too... productive?\n\n\n\nm\n-- \n martin.langhoff@gmail.com\n martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect\n - ask interesting questions\n - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first\n - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff\n"},{"id":"129285","messageId":"7v3a3prxdt.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":"94a0d4530912051137u682a3a99ved9d19338b881b13@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Gui criticism","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2009-12-05T20:14:54Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-05T20:14:54Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Felipe Contreras writes:\n\n> I don't think the mailing list is the best place for this, that's why\n> I just started a project in SourceForge, so that users can post these\n> kinds of issues in the ideatorrent:\n> https://sourceforge.net/apps/ideatorrent/git-ux/ideatorrent/\n\nTwo issues and a half offhand after entering one:\n\n - I found the experience of adding an \"idea\" too clunky and slow.\n Writing a well thought out e-mail can be done in the same time.\n\n - Although enforcing a minimum structure of \"idea\" description is a good\n thing to do, I found the current structure presented by that web page\n lacks focus. It has problem description and a rather broad and vague\n \"idea\", and it feels to me that it is promoting entering any garbage\n without discussing feasibility, \"pros-and-cons\" or necessary steps to\n achieve a particular goal.\n\n - The largest issue of this kind of system is who will be moderating and\n how capable they are.\n"},{"id":"129286","messageId":"94a0d4530912051225y2d193a1fqfb38ebcce95719c3@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":"7v3a3prxdt.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Gui criticism","fromName":"Felipe Contreras","fromEmail":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","sentAt":"2009-12-05T20:25:59Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-05T20:25:59Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"felipe.contreras@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/8358?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Felipe Contreras writes:\n>\n>> I don't think the mailing list is the best place for this, that's why\n>> I just started a project in SourceForge, so that users can post these\n>> kinds of issues in the ideatorrent:\n>> https://sourceforge.net/apps/ideatorrent/git-ux/ideatorrent/\n>\n> Two issues and a half offhand after entering one:\n>\n>  - I found the experience of adding an \"idea\" too clunky and slow.\n>   Writing a well thought out e-mail can be done in the same time.\n\nYeah, I agree; it's too slow right now, but it's the only way I've\nfound to host some kind of ideastorm.\n\nThe difference with e-mails is that ideas get votes, which helps to\nfind out what users really want:\nhttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/\n\nAlso, the main action to do in this system should be \"vote\", that's\nthe action that should be fast.\n\n>  - Although enforcing a minimum structure of \"idea\" description is a good\n>   thing to do, I found the current structure presented by that web page\n>   lacks focus.  It has problem description and a rather broad and vague\n>   \"idea\", and it feels to me that it is promoting entering any garbage\n>   without discussing feasibility, \"pros-and-cons\" or necessary steps to\n>   achieve a particular goal.\n\nThat's why ideas go to a sandbox, and then maintainers approve or reject them.\n\n>  - The largest issue of this kind of system is who will be moderating and\n>   how capable they are.\n\nIndeed, that's one issue, but also, it needs a large inflow of votes,\nand when popular ideas are identified, then it needs people to\nactually implement them.\n\n-- \nFelipe Contreras\n"},{"id":"129287","messageId":"7vhbs5qhlf.fsf@alter.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":"94a0d4530912051225y2d193a1fqfb38ebcce95719c3@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Gui criticism","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2009-12-05T20:41:16Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-05T20:41:16Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Felipe Contreras writes:\n\n> Also, the main action to do in this system should be \"vote\", that's\n> the action that should be fast.\n\nActually I do not think you would want that, especially as a moderator (I\nam assuming that you would be self-appointing to be one). What will you\ndo to help a \"broad, vague, and infeasible idea\" forward when it gets many\nvotes?\n\nThat is why I prefer a system that requires substance when voicing an\nopinion (\"Yes I like the solution because in addition to the original\nproblem description it will also help this use case\"), and it also is the\nreason I tend to ignore e-mails that only say \"+1\" on this list.\n\nIn other words, this is not a democracy, and you do not necessarily want a\ndemocracy that is prone to populism.\n"},{"id":"129492","messageId":"e5bfff550912072312h159d8873sb96b3783c8c4e20f@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"21871","inReplyTo":"loom.20091205T194800-496@post.gmane.org","subject":"Re: Gui criticism","fromName":"Marco Costalba","fromEmail":"mcostalba@gmail.com","sentAt":"2009-12-08T07:12:28Z","receivedAt":"2009-12-08T07:12:28Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"mcostalba@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 19:51, Ram Rachum wrote:\n> Hello!\n>\n> This is my first time on this list. I'm a Python developer who's been using git\n> for about a year. I generally like it, but I have several gripes about the GUI.\n> (My development machine is on Windows XP.) Would specifying these criticisms be\n> helpful to you?\n>\n\nWrong approach. First do then ask. Is not so polite but is how it\nworks in real word. :-)\n"}]}