{"thread":{"id":"1804","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","startedAt":"2005-09-15T03:21:33Z","lastAt":"2005-09-16T13:56:41Z","messageCount":10,"participants":["Linus Torvalds","H. Peter Anvin","Junio C Hamano","David Kågedal","Christian Meder","Theodore Ts'o"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"8576","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.58.0509142018410.26803@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"1126745323.7199.3.camel@localhost.localdomain","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2005-09-15T03:21:33Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T03:21:33Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:\n> \n> debian:~# cd linux-2.6/\n> debian:~/linux-2.6# git log\n> /usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found\n\nA very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with \"less\"...\n\nWhat a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM \nspec should have \"less\" as a dependency. \n\n\t\tLinus\n"},{"id":"8580","messageId":"43290486.5020301@zytor.com","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.58.0509142018410.26803@g5.osdl.org","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"H. Peter Anvin","fromEmail":"hpa@zytor.com","sentAt":"2005-09-15T05:20:06Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T05:20:06Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"hpa@zytor.com","avatar":null},"body":"Linus Torvalds wrote:\n> \n> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:\n> \n>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/\n>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log\n>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found\n> \n> \n> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with \"less\"...\n> \n> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git RPM \n> spec should have \"less\" as a dependency. \n> \n\nGenerally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.\n\n\t-hpa\n"},{"id":"8587","messageId":"7v7jdibwqq.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"43290486.5020301@zytor.com","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"junkio@cox.net","sentAt":"2005-09-15T07:45:01Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T07:45:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"\"H. Peter Anvin\" <hpa@zytor.com> writes:\n\n> Linus Torvalds wrote:\n>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:\n>>\n>>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/\n>>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log\n>>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found\n>> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with \"less\"...\n>> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git\n>> RPM spec should have \"less\" as a dependency.\n>\n> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.\n\nWe do, in the form of \"something | ${PAGER:-less}\".\n\nOn Debian, \"less\" is Priority \"standard\" and my understanding is\nthat the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly)\nomit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority\n\"essential\", so technically we are required to list \"less\" as\nour dependency.  I do not know about RPM/Fedora.\n"},{"id":"8592","messageId":"u5tvf12sp1v.fsf@lysator.liu.se","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"7v7jdibwqq.fsf@assigned-by-dhcp.cox.net","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"David Kågedal","fromEmail":"davidk@lysator.liu.se","sentAt":"2005-09-15T08:39:08Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T08:39:08Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"davidk@lysator.liu.se","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/60530?v=4"},"body":"Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> writes:\n\n> \"H. Peter Anvin\" <hpa@zytor.com> writes:\n>\n>> Linus Torvalds wrote:\n>>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Alejandro Bonilla Beeche wrote:\n>>>\n>>>>debian:~# cd linux-2.6/\n>>>>debian:~/linux-2.6# git log\n>>>>/usr/local/bin/git-log-script: line 4: less: command not found\n>>> A very strange Linux installation that doesn't come with \"less\"...\n>>> What a strange box. Anyway, that does point out that maybe the git\n>>> RPM spec should have \"less\" as a dependency.\n>>\n>> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.\n>\n> We do, in the form of \"something | ${PAGER:-less}\".\n>\n> On Debian, \"less\" is Priority \"standard\" and my understanding is\n> that the only thing we can (and should if I recall correctly)\n> omit from the dependency list is the packages of Priority\n> \"essential\", so technically we are required to list \"less\" as\n> our dependency.  I do not know about RPM/Fedora.\n\nOn my Debian system, there is a \"sensible-pager\" which does a\n${PAGER:-pager}, and \"pager\" which is a symlink to an installed pager\n(using the 'alternatives' system).  So a Debian package should\nprobably use one of those.\n\n-- \nDavid Kågedal\n"},{"id":"8602","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.58.0509150737030.26803@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"43290486.5020301@zytor.com","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2005-09-15T14:39:13Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T14:39:13Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Wed, 14 Sep 2005, H. Peter Anvin wrote:\n> \n> Generally you want to honour $PAGER if it is defined.\n\nWe do. But it falls back to \"less\" by default.\n\nI realize that UNIX tradition is to fall back to \"more\", but let's face\nit, that's just old and broken. There's \"tradition\" and there's \"being\nstupid and unable to change\".\n\nOf course, if RPM supports the notion of \"suggest\", maybe we can make \n\"less\" a suggestion rather than a requirement, since you can still use git \nwithout it as long as you set PAGER.\n\n\t\tLinus\n"},{"id":"8608","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.58.0509150905070.26803@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"u5tvf12sp1v.fsf@lysator.liu.se","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2005-09-15T16:07:05Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T16:07:05Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:\n>\n> On my Debian system, there is a \"sensible-pager\" which does a\n> ${PAGER:-pager}, and \"pager\" which is a symlink to an installed pager\n> (using the 'alternatives' system).  So a Debian package should\n> probably use one of those.\n\nOk, this is now indisputable proof that Debian people are insane.\n\nThey have \"sensible-pager\", but not \"less\"?\n\nGuys, somebody should visit a few Debian people with a baseball bat that \nis painted bright neon yellow, and has \"CLUEBAT\" written in big purple \nletters on it. And beat them to a quivering pulp.\n\nThere's \"being flexible\", and there's \"being a total ass\". Debian is being \na total ass.\n\n\t\tLinus\n"},{"id":"8613","messageId":"u5toe6uql1w.fsf@lysator.liu.se","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.58.0509150905070.26803@g5.osdl.org","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"David Kågedal","fromEmail":"davidk@lysator.liu.se","sentAt":"2005-09-15T17:48:27Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T17:48:27Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"davidk@lysator.liu.se","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/60530?v=4"},"body":"Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> writes:\n\n> They have \"sensible-pager\", but not \"less\"?\n\nNo, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.\n\nsensible-pager is just an indirection that uses your preferred pager.\nThis will usually be less, but if a user prefers to use e.g. \"w3m\" (or\n\"more\") that can be done by reconfiguring a symlink (using the\nupdate-alternatives program, or even a GUI such as galternatives).\n\nSo no, they haven't replaced less with sensible-pager.  They just\nprovided another way to select which pager you want.  Setting $PAGER\nwill still work the trick.\n\nRunning \"sensible-pager\" will check $PAGER an run that if set,\notherwise run the pager selected via the alternatives sytem, which\nwill usually be \"less\".  The alternatives selection is done with a\nsymlink called \"/usr/bin/pager\".\n\nThe advantage is, I guess, consistency.  Different programs don't have\nto encode their own default pager.\n\nTo summarize: on a Debian system with \"less\" as the preferred pager,\nthese four invokations are equal:\n\n  $ ${PAGER:-less}\n  $ sensible-pager\n  $ pager\n  $ less\n\nIf you set $PAGER to something else, the first two variants will run\n$PAGER, while the last two will still run \"less\".\n\n-- \nDavid Kågedal\n"},{"id":"8615","messageId":"Pine.LNX.4.58.0509151106200.26803@g5.osdl.org","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"u5toe6uql1w.fsf@lysator.liu.se","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"Linus Torvalds","fromEmail":"torvalds@osdl.org","sentAt":"2005-09-15T18:15:52Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T18:15:52Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"torvalds@linux-foundation.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/1024025?v=4"},"body":"\n\nOn Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:\n> \n> No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.\n\nNo, I did get it.\n\nIt's the Debian people who don't get it.\n\nExpecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific \npackages is _insane_.\n\nIn other word, no sane package will ever use \"sensible-pager\", because\nit's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are \"Big Poo-Bah\nAnd OverLord of the KnownUniverse\" and can force everybody else to have\n\"sensible-pager\" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then\nit's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either\n(a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have \nnormal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER.\n\nAnd like it or not, there are two standard pages: \"more\" and \"less\". In \nthe immortal words: \"To two shall you count. You shall not count to one, \nexcept on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three, \nnot call it 'sensible-pager'\".\n\nThe fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called \"less\".\n\nAnd for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is \"more\", we either \ninstall that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to \"less\".\n\nAnd for people who want something else, everybody already supports the \nSTANDARD way of saying so: \"$PAGER\".\n\nIn other words, \"sensible-pager\" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for \nconfusion and extra work.\n\n> The advantage is, I guess, consistency.  Different programs don't have\n> to encode their own default pager.\n\nNo. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure \nas hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if \nDebian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own \nmaintainers.\n\nThey're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now \ntheir users will have to live with the fact that they are used to \nnon-standard behaviour.\n\nAnd it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a \nlot to be said for \"do it like others do it\".\n\n\t\t\tLinus\n"},{"id":"8640","messageId":"1126822093.27951.74.camel@localhost","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"Pine.LNX.4.58.0509151106200.26803@g5.osdl.org","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"Christian Meder","fromEmail":"chris@absolutegiganten.org","sentAt":"2005-09-15T22:08:12Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-15T22:08:12Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"chris@absolutegiganten.org","avatar":null},"body":"On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 11:15 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:\n> \n> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, David Kågedal wrote:\n> > \n> > No, you read my message wrong, or I failed to describe it properly.\n> \n> No, I did get it.\n> \n> It's the Debian people who don't get it.\n> \n> Expecting other software projects to make cludges for Debian-specific \n> packages is _insane_.\n\nActually according to Debian policy, sensible-pager is a cludge which\nshould be used _only_ in the case that the upstream program is hard to\nadapt to a PAGER environment approach. Only in this case the upstream\npackage should be patched to at least use sensible-pager.\n\n> \n> In other word, no sane package will ever use \"sensible-pager\", because\n> it's not a sensible thing to do. Once Debian maintainers are \"Big Poo-Bah\n> And OverLord of the KnownUniverse\" and can force everybody else to have\n> \"sensible-pager\" too, maybe -then- it might make sense, but until then\n> it's just an odd-ball Debian thing that makes Debian maintainers either\n> (a) maintain stupid patches to teach other programs about it or (b) have \n> normal programs that use the _standard_ pagers in the absense of $PAGER.\n> \n> And like it or not, there are two standard pages: \"more\" and \"less\". In \n> the immortal words: \"To two shall you count. You shall not count to one, \n> except on your way to two. And you shall definitely NOT count to three, \n> not call it 'sensible-pager'\".\n> \n> The fact is, we HAVE a sensible-pager, and it is called \"less\".\n> \n> And for old programs that assume that sensible-pager is \"more\", we either \n> install that _too_, or we make a symlink that points to \"less\".\n\nDebian prefers to call the symlink \"pager\" and let the sysadmin decide\nwhere it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream\npackage for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less.\nGranted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author\ndeciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much\nbetter. \n\nJust wanted to nitpick. Now you can reignite your flamethrower ;-) \n\n\n\n\t\t\t\tChristian\n\n> \n> And for people who want something else, everybody already supports the \n> STANDARD way of saying so: \"$PAGER\".\n> \n> In other words, \"sensible-pager\" buys you absolutely _nothing_. Except for \n> confusion and extra work.\n> \n> > The advantage is, I guess, consistency.  Different programs don't have\n> > to encode their own default pager.\n> \n> No. That's NOT an advantage. It's a disadvantage. Different programs sure \n> as hell will not do silly Debian-only things, so it just means that if \n> Debian tries to enforce this, they're only causing more work for their own \n> maintainers.\n> \n> They're also causing more work and discomfort for their users, since now \n> their users will have to live with the fact that they are used to \n> non-standard behaviour.\n> \n> And it has _zero_ upsides. Exactly because it's not standard. There's a \n> lot to be said for \"do it like others do it\".\n> \n> \t\t\tLinus\n> -\n> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line \"unsubscribe git\" in\n> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org\n> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html\n-- \nChristian Meder, email: chris@absolutegiganten.org\n\nThe Way-Seeking Mind of a tenzo is actualized \nby rolling up your sleeves.\n\n                (Eihei Dogen Zenji)\n"},{"id":"8678","messageId":"20050916135641.GA13762@thunk.org","threadId":"1804","inReplyTo":"1126822093.27951.74.camel@localhost","subject":"Re: \"Read my lips: no more merges\" - aka Linux 2.6.14-rc1","fromName":"Theodore Ts'o","fromEmail":"tytso@mit.edu","sentAt":"2005-09-16T13:56:41Z","receivedAt":"2005-09-16T13:56:41Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tytso@mit.edu","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/51416?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, Sep 16, 2005 at 12:08:12AM +0200, Christian Meder wrote:\n> Debian prefers to call the symlink \"pager\" and let the sysadmin decide\n> where it should point: less, more, whatever. The e2fsprogs upstream\n> package for instance supports PAGER->/usr/bin/pager->/usr/bin/less.\n> Granted /usr/bin/pager is probably Debian only but every upstream author\n> deciding whether to use PAGER:more or PAGER:less is not _that_ much\n> better. \n\nActually, debugfs uses $DEBUGFS_PAGER:$PAGER:pager:more:less as its\nsearch path, where it looks for each executable in /usr/bin, /bin, and\nthe current directory.\n\nOverkill, yes; but it was the best way to shut up the whiny debian\nusers who kept on filing bug reports.  (Yes, yes, I'm softie.\nBesides, it's userspace, and compared to GNOME, KDE, or Mozilla, the\nbloat involved isn't even measurable.  :-)\n\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\t- Ted\n"}]}