{"thread":{"id":"15911","subject":"git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","startedAt":"2008-10-15T10:18:09Z","lastAt":"2008-10-17T01:57:04Z","messageCount":13,"participants":["PJ Hyett","Wincent Colaiuta","Scott Chacon","Petr Baudis","Jonathan del Strother","Jakub Narebski","Teemu Likonen","Garry Dolley","Aaron Cohen","Nanako Shiraishi","Junio C Hamano"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"93081","messageId":"bab6a2ab0810150318pb616a6dj867efa36623ac12e@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"bab6a2ab0810150315l273d4ef3k95cda8f43a4745ca@mail.gmail.com","subject":"git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"PJ Hyett","fromEmail":"pjhyett@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-10-15T10:18:09Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T10:18:09Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pjhyett@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/14ddb30a3ad7207eaf7f99f07c6ba9f0d1d47d9d10bbbd13d06ef1b9b8cdb824?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"> One nitpick regarding your git.git mirror: I doubt that people here\n> (\"the community\") consider git-scm.com to be \"the git homepage\". I don't\n> want to go into the reasons and start a pointless thread, but since\n> git-scm.com is a fork of git.or.cz pointing to the latter (the root)\n> should make everyone happy.\n\nHi Michael,\nI'll go ahead and start a pointless thread along with the reasons\nprovided via answers to the 2008 Git Survey[1]:\n\n43) What could be improved on the Git homepage(s)?\n\n* Use git-scm.com instead of git.or.cz as the default homepage\n* Learn from git-scm.com. Make it more newbie-friendly. More focus on\ndocumentation\n* Better graphical design/organization - new(?) git-scm.com looks better\n* Look at git-scm.com :)\n* Cleaner design, better organization (http://git-scm.com/ is a good start).\n* Design - git-scm.com is superior compared to git.or.cz. Also the\nfirst one is more user-friendly having exposed more important things\nfor users rather for experienced veterans who want to download most\ncurrent git release.\n* I like what Scott Chacon has done with http://git-scm.com\n* I prefer Scot Chacons rewrite, but mostly just it's look and feel.\nThe original site is perfectly functional; though it could do with\nbetter documentation.\n* git-scm.com\n* git-scm.com is a great example of some light improvement. I do think\nthat the online man-page navigation is a little annoying, having to\nrevert to find in the browser to get to the right spot on the page. An\nalternate alphabetical listing might help.\n* Don't put everything on the first page, it is a little confusing.\nCreate categories, like download, documentation, About git and at\nleast a dedicated page for each of these categories. I think the\n\"design\" could also be improved. I saw a proposition not long ago\naboutr a new git homepage on the mailing list: www.git-scm.com. I\nthink this site is easier to navigate and thus makes it easier to find\ninformations.\n* I like the new git-scm site (with the blob committed to storing trees)\n* Merge with Git-scm page?\n* I like <http://www.git-scm.com> very much. I'd vote for it to be the\nofficial Git homepage.\n* git.or.cz?? I prefer http://git-scm.com/, it's better for beginners,\nand the information is nicely presented (doc, tips, videos..).\n* promote git-scm.com instead of git.or.cz\n* See http://git-scm.com/\n* I think git-scm.com is starting to get things right. Making\ndocumentation readily available especially.\n* Complete re-design by somebody actually the least bit proficient in\ndesign? Oh wait, that's already been done at http://git-scm.com/.\n* Rather ugly design. git-scm.com looks much better.\n* I like Scott Chacon's site a lot and use it often: http://git-scm.com/\n* Compare #1 and #2 1) http://git-scm.com 2) http://git.or.cz\n* http://git.or.cz and http://git-scm.com should be merged\n* http://git-scm.com/ is a worderfull project, making the homepage\nlook and feel much better and \"user friendly\". The source code is at\nhttp://github.com/schacon/gitscm. What about using this as the Git\nofficial homepage (not the domain, but the interface and images).\n* git-scm.com should be the official page :)\n* Organization and flow particularly for new users. I think Scott\nChacon's git-scm.com site does a much better job. Organization and\nnavigation of the content are the things that make it a winner.\n* The www.git-scm.com homepage is great.\n* Which one? http://git.or.cz/ or http://git-scm.com/ I tend to use\ngit-scm.com just because it looks nicer, is written in Rails and has\nmore user friendly information. Rather than browsing what feels like\n\"A manual online\" that is git.or.cz\n* I think the homepage (http://git-scm.com/) however work should be\ndone to have that come ahead of http://git.or.cz/ which currently tops\nall the queries. I would try to strike a deal with that domain to\nhttp-redirect to the new url. I can only imagine that this duplication\nleads to confusion and a bad experience.\n* It should look more like http://git-scm.com\n* http://git-scm.com/ > git.or.cz -scm has all the info I might want\nup front in one page, while my eyes gloss over just looking at or.cz.\n\nCheers,\nPJ Hyett\nhttp://github.com/pjhyett\n\n1. http://www.survs.com/app/4/wo/IQ2m9AwQ2qFAVwuZrRLF4w/0.0.9.3.3.0.1.3.42.1.7.1\n"},{"id":"93083","messageId":"20C9ABEC-52E5-405E-A755-C58A6359D7A9@wincent.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"bab6a2ab0810150318pb616a6dj867efa36623ac12e@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"Wincent Colaiuta","fromEmail":"win@wincent.com","sentAt":"2008-10-15T10:34:21Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T10:34:21Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"greg@hurrell.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/7074?v=4"},"body":"El 15/10/2008, a las 12:18, PJ Hyett escribió:\n\n>> One nitpick regarding your git.git mirror: I doubt that people here\n>> (\"the community\") consider git-scm.com to be \"the git homepage\". I  \n>> don't\n>> want to go into the reasons and start a pointless thread, but since\n>> git-scm.com is a fork of git.or.cz pointing to the latter (the root)\n>> should make everyone happy.\n>\n> Hi Michael,\n> I'll go ahead and start a pointless thread along with the reasons\n> provided via answers to the 2008 Git Survey[1]:\n\nComing up in news at 6...\n\nGitHub announces new maintainer for Git\n\nGitHub is proud to announce the replacement of the old Git maintainer  \nwith the \"Git Core Team\", comprising PJ Hyett, Scott Chacon, Tom  \nPreston and some select personalities from the Ruby on Rails world.  \nYou'll be able to track all the latest updates to \"Git Edge\" over at  \nGitHub. The former maintainer, Junio C Hamano, is being retired from  \nservice because the Git community (see git-scm.com) decided he wasn't  \nas good-looking as David Heinemeier Hanson. For more information, see  \nthe official Git book (book.git-scm.com).\n"},{"id":"93103","messageId":"d411cc4a0810150921j198fda93j60dae04c4cc9b9d1@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"20C9ABEC-52E5-405E-A755-C58A6359D7A9@wincent.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-10-15T16:21:50Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T16:21:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 3:34 AM, Wincent Colaiuta <win@wincent.com> wrote:\n> El 15/10/2008, a las 12:18, PJ Hyett escribió:\n>\n>>> One nitpick regarding your git.git mirror: I doubt that people here\n>>> (\"the community\") consider git-scm.com to be \"the git homepage\". I don't\n>>> want to go into the reasons and start a pointless thread, but since\n>>> git-scm.com is a fork of git.or.cz pointing to the latter (the root)\n>>> should make everyone happy.\n\nThere is a slight misperception here.  I setup the git mirror at\nGitHub as part of my git-scm.com work, they did not do it as some sort\nof semi-official mirror.  The reason the git.git repo points to\ngit-scm is because I had plans to use github apis to do some fun stuff\non git-scm, and the mirror is being kept up to date by scripts on the\ngit-scm server.  Also, I figured it was likely that people looking at\nthe git repo on GitHub rather than on kernel.org would probably be\nmore interested in the more user-friendly version, yes?  That's all,\nit's nothing sinister. Petr and I have previously discussed trying to\nunify the sites somehow and will likely discuss this in more detail at\nthe GitTogether in a few weeks.\n\nAlso, trust me - none of us want Junio's job.  I've talked way too\nmuch with Shawn over the last few weeks to ever covet that position :)\n\nI do wish that there wasn't this 'us vs them' mentality on this list,\nthough. I think GitHub is doing some good things for the community,\nand I also think that 'the community' is bigger than this list.  I\npropose that we spend our cycles on git stuff, rather than mocking or\ntrying to exclude each other.\n\nAlso, I think we can all agree that Junio is strikingly handsome.\n\nScott\n\n>>\n>> Hi Michael,\n>> I'll go ahead and start a pointless thread along with the reasons\n>> provided via answers to the 2008 Git Survey[1]:\n>\n> Coming up in news at 6...\n>\n> GitHub announces new maintainer for Git\n>\n> GitHub is proud to announce the replacement of the old Git maintainer with\n> the \"Git Core Team\", comprising PJ Hyett, Scott Chacon, Tom Preston and some\n> select personalities from the Ruby on Rails world. You'll be able to track\n> all the latest updates to \"Git Edge\" over at GitHub. The former maintainer,\n> Junio C Hamano, is being retired from service because the Git community (see\n> git-scm.com) decided he wasn't as good-looking as David Heinemeier Hanson.\n> For more information, see the official Git book (book.git-scm.com).\n>\n> --\n> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line \"unsubscribe git\" in\n> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org\n> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html\n>\n"},{"id":"93108","messageId":"20081015172543.GX10544@machine.or.cz","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0810150921j198fda93j60dae04c4cc9b9d1@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-10-15T17:25:43Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T17:25:43Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 09:21:50AM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> Petr and I have previously discussed trying to unify the sites somehow\n> and will likely discuss this in more detail at the GitTogether in a\n> few weeks.\n\nYes. I mentioned this on IRC but should really write it on the mailing\nlist - I'm looking forward for the GitTogether to resolve any remaining\nissues anyone has with git-scm.com and make git.or.cz probably\nessentially point to git-scm.com. Since the old threads died away long\nago, if anyone - especially who is not attending GitTogether - still\ndislikes some things about the git-scm.com site, please follow up here.\n\n> I do wish that there wasn't this 'us vs them' mentality on this list,\n> though. I think GitHub is doing some good things for the community,\n> and I also think that 'the community' is bigger than this list.\n\nI think this last sentence is where we differ - for (most of?) us the\nGit developers, 'the community' pretty much _is_ this list (with the IRC\nchannel as its casual extension). But I'm very glad to see an\nannouncement from the GitHub people here and I hope we will see more of\nthem. Don't worry about the occasional flames, we all get hit by them\nsometime. :-) (Um, I personally think *I* get flamed much less than I\nwould deserve. ;-)\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nPeople who take cold baths never have rheumatism, but they have\ncold baths.\n"},{"id":"93113","messageId":"bab6a2ab0810151136n4f997890qd418277ea8c4aea4@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"20C9ABEC-52E5-405E-A755-C58A6359D7A9@wincent.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"PJ Hyett","fromEmail":"pjhyett@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-10-15T18:36:10Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T18:36:10Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pjhyett@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/14ddb30a3ad7207eaf7f99f07c6ba9f0d1d47d9d10bbbd13d06ef1b9b8cdb824?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"> Coming up in news at 6...\n>\n> GitHub announces new maintainer for Git\n>\n> GitHub is proud to announce the replacement of the old Git maintainer with\n> the \"Git Core Team\", comprising PJ Hyett, Scott Chacon, Tom Preston and some\n> select personalities from the Ruby on Rails world. You'll be able to track\n> all the latest updates to \"Git Edge\" over at GitHub. The former maintainer,\n> Junio C Hamano, is being retired from service because the Git community (see\n> git-scm.com) decided he wasn't as good-looking as David Heinemeier Hanson.\n> For more information, see the official Git book (book.git-scm.com).\n\nIn case there was any confusion, this is why we almost never bother\nposting to the list, because no matter what the topic, it always turns\ninto why the git community hates GitHub.\n\nI really don't understand the disdain for a company that's made git\naccessible to a much wider audience in less than a year. I kinda\nthought we'd all be on the same team.\n\nFor the record, Scott wasn't a GitHub employee when he wrote\ngit-scm.com, nor was he paid to produce it. Turns out people don't\nalways have ulterior motives, he just wanted to make a better git\nhomepage.\n\n\n-PJ\n"},{"id":"93115","messageId":"57518fd10810151202v2f64b830h333f31856aaf07c7@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"bab6a2ab0810151136n4f997890qd418277ea8c4aea4@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"Jonathan del Strother","fromEmail":"maillist@steelskies.com","sentAt":"2008-10-15T19:02:25Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T19:02:25Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jon.delstrother@bestbefore.tv","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/754e21ab701c00e2d21fc261187254c34b2a1c0b959d9ee5be1a295990be3081?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 7:36 PM, PJ Hyett <pjhyett@gmail.com> wrote:\n>> Coming up in news at 6...\n>>\n>> GitHub announces new maintainer for Git\n>>\n>> GitHub is proud to announce the replacement of the old Git maintainer with\n>> the \"Git Core Team\", comprising PJ Hyett, Scott Chacon, Tom Preston and some\n>> select personalities from the Ruby on Rails world. You'll be able to track\n>> all the latest updates to \"Git Edge\" over at GitHub. The former maintainer,\n>> Junio C Hamano, is being retired from service because the Git community (see\n>> git-scm.com) decided he wasn't as good-looking as David Heinemeier Hanson.\n>> For more information, see the official Git book (book.git-scm.com).\n>\n> In case there was any confusion, this is why we almost never bother\n> posting to the list, because no matter what the topic, it always turns\n> into why the git community hates GitHub.\n\nReally?  I thought it was usually just about how Wincent hates GitHub.\n\n\nFWIW, I think github is pretty good, and git-scm.com is great.\n"},{"id":"93119","messageId":"m3prm1k6lz.fsf@localhost.localdomain","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"bab6a2ab0810151136n4f997890qd418277ea8c4aea4@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-10-15T19:20:43Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T19:20:43Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"\"PJ Hyett\" <pjhyett@gmail.com> writes:\n\n[> Wincent Colaiuta wrote:]\nThe above attribution was missing, BTW...\n\n> > Coming up in news at 6...\n> >\n> > GitHub announces new maintainer for Git\n> >\n> > GitHub is proud to announce the replacement of the old Git maintainer with\n> > the \"Git Core Team\", comprising PJ Hyett, Scott Chacon, Tom Preston and some\n> > select personalities from the Ruby on Rails world. You'll be able to track\n> > all the latest updates to \"Git Edge\" over at GitHub. The former maintainer,\n> > Junio C Hamano, is being retired from service because the Git community (see\n> > git-scm.com) decided he wasn't as good-looking as David Heinemeier Hanson.\n> > For more information, see the official Git book (book.git-scm.com).\n> \n> In case there was any confusion, this is why we almost never bother\n> posting to the list, because no matter what the topic, it always turns\n> into why the git community hates GitHub.\n\nErrr... for me it looks like somebodys irony detection is not working...\nOn the other hand it is why Scott E Fahlman invented emoticons :-)\n\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\nShadeHawk on #git\n"},{"id":"93123","messageId":"87abd5y81d.fsf@iki.fi","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"bab6a2ab0810151136n4f997890qd418277ea8c4aea4@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Teemu Likonen","fromEmail":"tlikonen@iki.fi","sentAt":"2008-10-15T19:26:06Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T19:26:06Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tlikonen@iki.fi","avatar":null},"body":"PJ Hyett [2008-10-15 11:36 -0700]:\n\n> For the record, Scott wasn't a GitHub employee when he wrote\n> git-scm.com, nor was he paid to produce it. Turns out people don't\n> always have ulterior motives, he just wanted to make a better git\n> homepage.\n\nI'm not sure what community I'm part of but I think git-scm.com is much\nbetter homepage. I also think that the new user book[1] is better than\nthe one in kernel.org. So thanks for contributing to git users.\n\n-------------\n1. http://book.git-scm.com/\n"},{"id":"93134","messageId":"20081015201230.GA9534@garry-x300.arpnetworks.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"bab6a2ab0810151136n4f997890qd418277ea8c4aea4@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"Garry Dolley","fromEmail":"gdolley@arpnetworks.com","sentAt":"2008-10-15T20:12:30Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T20:12:30Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gdolley@ucla.edu","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/b9ca98e2d5fd3a993ad695e8315f078b7ae364d2d1b637a6adecf8953a034dd2?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:36:10AM -0700, PJ Hyett wrote:\n> > Coming up in news at 6...\n> >\n> > GitHub announces new maintainer for Git\n> >\n> > GitHub is proud to announce the replacement of the old Git maintainer with\n> > the \"Git Core Team\", comprising PJ Hyett, Scott Chacon, Tom Preston and some\n> > select personalities from the Ruby on Rails world. You'll be able to track\n> > all the latest updates to \"Git Edge\" over at GitHub. The former maintainer,\n> > Junio C Hamano, is being retired from service because the Git community (see\n> > git-scm.com) decided he wasn't as good-looking as David Heinemeier Hanson.\n> > For more information, see the official Git book (book.git-scm.com).\n> \n> In case there was any confusion, this is why we almost never bother\n> posting to the list, because no matter what the topic, it always turns\n> into why the git community hates GitHub.\n\nFor the record, I'm a part of the git community and I like GitHub\nquite a bit. :)\n\n-- \nGarry Dolley\nARP Networks, Inc.\nhttp://scie.nti.st\nLos Angeles County REACT, Unit 336\nWQGK336\n"},{"id":"93147","messageId":"727e50150810151404i5c70b7d7u380da947169db6a7@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"20081015201230.GA9534@garry-x300.arpnetworks.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com (was Re: Git graph on GitHub)","fromName":"Aaron Cohen","fromEmail":"aaron@assonance.org","sentAt":"2008-10-15T21:04:36Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-15T21:04:36Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"aaron@assonance.org","avatar":null},"body":"On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 4:12 PM, Garry Dolley <gdolley@arpnetworks.com> wrote:\n> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:36:10AM -0700, PJ Hyett wrote:\n>> > Coming up in news at 6...\n>> >\n>> > GitHub announces new maintainer for Git\n>> >\n>> > GitHub is proud to announce the replacement of the old Git maintainer with\n>> > the \"Git Core Team\", comprising PJ Hyett, Scott Chacon, Tom Preston and some\n>> > select personalities from the Ruby on Rails world. You'll be able to track\n>> > all the latest updates to \"Git Edge\" over at GitHub. The former maintainer,\n>> > Junio C Hamano, is being retired from service because the Git community (see\n>> > git-scm.com) decided he wasn't as good-looking as David Heinemeier Hanson.\n>> > For more information, see the official Git book (book.git-scm.com).\n>>\n>> In case there was any confusion, this is why we almost never bother\n>> posting to the list, because no matter what the topic, it always turns\n>> into why the git community hates GitHub.\n>\n> For the record, I'm a part of the git community and I like GitHub\n> quite a bit. :)\n>\n\nFor the record, I'm not part of either community and find things to\ndislike about both of them.\n\ngit.or.cz: I personally prefer its plain style, but it has way too\nmuch information on the front page (why is so much download\ninformation on that page rather than hidden behind the \"download\" link\nthat currently just goes to an ftp directory?)\n\ngit-scm.com: Much better organized, but suffers from web 2.0\nshininess.  Also, every time I look at it my eyes have to read\nEVERYTHING to figure out what ANYTHING is.  For instance, why is there\nthat random column of \"projects using git\" that seems to only exist to\ndistract me from the important stuff?\n"},{"id":"93174","messageId":"20081016184239.6117@nanako3.lavabit.com","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"20081015172543.GX10544@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Nanako Shiraishi","fromEmail":"nanako3@lavabit.com","sentAt":"2008-10-16T09:42:39Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-16T09:42:39Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"nanako3@lavabit.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/3777b9e201c5883a62b1a6fdf7c53f2d712d1d80989146063ea861e33aad72a8?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Quoting Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz>:\n> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 09:21:50AM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>> I do wish that there wasn't this 'us vs them' mentality on this list,\n>> though. I think GitHub is doing some good things for the community,\n>> and I also think that 'the community' is bigger than this list.\n>\n> I think this last sentence is where we differ - for (most of?) us the\n> Git developers, 'the community' pretty much _is_ this list (with the IRC\n> channel as its casual extension).\n\nCuriously, whenever somebody says \"git-scm.com is the official git homepage\", you are not involved in the discussion.  Could you share your position on this issue with the rest of the \"community\"?\n\n-- \nNanako Shiraishi\nhttp://ivory.ap.teacup.com/nanako3/\n"},{"id":"93178","messageId":"20081016094951.GQ10360@machine.or.cz","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"20081016184239.6117@nanako3.lavabit.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-10-16T09:49:51Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-16T09:49:51Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 06:42:39PM +0900, Nanako Shiraishi wrote:\n> Quoting Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz>:\n> > On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 09:21:50AM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> >> I do wish that there wasn't this 'us vs them' mentality on this list,\n> >> though. I think GitHub is doing some good things for the community,\n> >> and I also think that 'the community' is bigger than this list.\n> >\n> > I think this last sentence is where we differ - for (most of?) us the\n> > Git developers, 'the community' pretty much _is_ this list (with the IRC\n> > channel as its casual extension).\n> \n> Curiously, whenever somebody says \"git-scm.com is the official git homepage\", you are not involved in the discussion.  Could you share your position on this issue with the rest of the \"community\"?\n\n  To possibly save Junio some archives digging, he did share his\nposition in the original thread at\n\n\thttp://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/90079/focus=90167\n\n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\n"},{"id":"93258","messageId":"7vljwoq8zz.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"15911","inReplyTo":"20081016184239.6117@nanako3.lavabit.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-10-17T01:57:04Z","receivedAt":"2008-10-17T01:57:04Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Nanako Shiraishi <nanako3@lavabit.com> writes:\n\n> Quoting Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz>:\n>> On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 09:21:50AM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>>> I do wish that there wasn't this 'us vs them' mentality on this list,\n>>> though. I think GitHub is doing some good things for the community,\n>>> and I also think that 'the community' is bigger than this list.\n>>\n>> I think this last sentence is where we differ - for (most of?) us the\n>> Git developers, 'the community' pretty much _is_ this list (with the IRC\n>> channel as its casual extension).\n>\n> Curiously, whenever somebody says \"git-scm.com is the official git\n> homepage\", you are not involved in the discussion.  Could you share your\n> position on this issue with the rest of the \"community\"?\n\nThe thing is, I do not think whatever I say would be any more official\nthan what Pasky says when it comes to \"the git homepage\", even though I\nmight be a fairly central person in the developer community.\n\nI first have to say that in this era of the Internet and distributed\ndevelopment, \"official\" status means much less than what everybody seems\nto think [*1*].  It is perfectly fine for people to decide which site they\nwould want to go for git related information for themselves, and direct\ntheir friends to.\n\nIn other words, I do not care either way very much, personally.\n\nThe \"official\" maintainer of git was Shawn for a short while last year in\nOctober, after he claimed to act as one during my absense, and everybody\naccepted it not because I named him but he had the necessary respect and\ntrust from the developers.  I asked him to be the maintainer again this\nyear during early October, and again it worked quite well.  I imagine it\nwould have worked if it were not Shawn but any other people among the few\npeople I trust on this list.  I don't have to name them but you know who\nyou are, and more importantly, people in the developer community know who\nyou are.  That is what respect and trust are about.\n\nIt wouldn't have worked well if the self-claimed interim maintainer were\njust some random Joe, and it wouldn't have worked well either, even if I\nendorsed him, if the random Joe did not have enough respect and trust from\nthe community.\n\nPasky's site came first from very early in git's life, people contributed\ncontents to it over time, and he kept the site up-to-date, and through all\nthat effort, Pasky earned (at least my) respect and trust that the site\nwill keep serving the git users and developers well as it has been in the\npast.  For this reason, to me personally, the \"official homepage\" has\nalways been git.or.cz, and will continue to be so, until Pasky says he\nconsiders Scott and his pages earned enough respect and trust _from him_,\nand wants to redirect git.or.cz traffic to git-scm.com [*2*].\n\nRegarding \"the community\", I think what Pasky said in the quoted message\nis right in that the word, used in a message on _this_ mailing list,\nrefers to \"the developer community\", whose definition I 100% agree with\nwhat he said.\n\nI sense that people around GitHub come from a different world --- it may\nalso be a legitimate \"git community\" (perhaps a \"users and evangelists\ncommunity\", which is not a bad thing in itself), but certainly it is\ndifferent from the git developer community as I know it.\n\nI think \"us vs them\" mentality is unavoidable to a certain degree.  More\nimportantly, I should also point out that it goes both ways.  I think the\n\"fork once and part forever\" attitude of git-scm.com from the very\nbeginning stems from the very same \"us vs them\" mentality.  The developer\ncommunity (\"them\" for Scott, \"us\" for me and Pasky) has been (and will\nalways be) text oriented, because we tend to try shooting for the greatest\ncommon denominator.  The end-user community in this Web 2.0 era (\"us\" for\nScott, \"them\" for me and Pasky) on the other hand, would want to be\nentertained by singing and dancing contents.  The two communities serve\ndifferent purposes and consist of different audiences.\n\nVery early on, Scott made his intention clear that git-scm.com once copies\nfrom git.or.cz, forks and is very unlikely to merge back because of this\nvast difference of the target audience.  That's \"us vs them\" mentality\nright there, but I do not think this division was particularly a bad thing\nat all.  It led to what git-scm.com site has in addition to what it copied\nfrom git.or.cz; git-scm.com has made git more approachable by the kinds of\nend users who were repelled by the spartan git.or.cz's contents and\norganization.  It was a good thing.\n\nSo let's help both sites improve support for git users _and_ developers,\nand watch git-scm.com continue earning our respect and trust.  It is my\nunderstanding that Pasky is hoping that it can turn into a good site that\nsupports not just end users but developers well, so that he can start\nredirecting repo.or.cz traffic to it, and I am hoping the same.\n\nAnd let's do so without flaming anybody ;-).\n\n\n[Footnote]\n\n*1* While I was researching to write this message, I was kind of surprised\nto find that the Wikipedia article on git went through a few rounds of\nflipping between pointing at git.or.cz and git-scm.com.  I didn't study\nthe page history deeply enough to see who did what change, but I doubt any\nof the people who are doing real work on either site are stupid enough to\nhave got involved in the self promotion nonsense.  I trust Pasky that much\n(and much more), and also I came to trust Scott at least that much, after\nseeing git-scm.com adding useful contents over the past few months\n(admittedly the rate of the improvement may have slowed down somewhat\nrecently, compared to its initial bulk import from git.or.cz).\n\n*2* There is no point in duplicated effort when the goals of two sites are\ncompatible and when there is such trust between two parties.  I do not yet\nknow if the goals are compatible, though.  We'll see.\n"}]}