{"thread":{"id":"14676","subject":"git-scm.com","startedAt":"2008-07-25T17:35:43Z","lastAt":"2008-08-03T22:00:08Z","messageCount":77,"participants":["Scott Chacon","Sverre Rabbelier","Johan Herland","Stephan Beyer","Junio C Hamano","Patrick Aljord","Petr Baudis","Johannes Schindelin","david@lang.hm","Martin Langhoff","Jakub Narebski","Rene Herman","Wincent Colaiuta","Thomas Adam","Peter Valdemar Mørch (Lists)","Tom Werner","Pieter de Bie","Shawn O. Pearce","Jon Loeliger","Kevin Ballard","Jonas Fonseca"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"84912","messageId":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-25T17:35:43Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T17:35:43Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Hey all,\n\nA followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\nI forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\nbit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com. I had meant\nto discuss this with Petr before posting it to you all, but I\npublished a blog post that got a bit more attention than I expected,\nand I didn't want you all to think I didn't care about your opinion,\nas some have already accused me of.\n\nAnyhow, I'm discussing with Petr about where we want to go from here -\nwhat changes he'd like to make, etc, but I obviously value your\nopinion as well, so please let me know what you think. The content\nhas barely changed, it's really just a usability overhaul. I want to\nmake sure that whatever someone is looking for (especially someone\nnew), they can find in a few clicks and a few seconds.\n\nNext, I will be working on the larger end-user documentation project,\nwhich will linked to from the documentation page of this site, and\nprobably the main page too. I'll keep this list updated as I go,\nsince people tend to think I don't care about the community when I try\nnot to waste your time. :)\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"84949","messageId":"bd6139dc0807251420x32e65e73o8db5d77c8b841947@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Sverre Rabbelier","fromEmail":"alturin@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-25T21:20:02Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T21:20:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"alturin@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 19:35, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> A followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\n> I forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\n> bit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com. I had meant\n> to discuss this with Petr before posting it to you all, but I\n> published a blog post that got a bit more attention than I expected,\n> and I didn't want you all to think I didn't care about your opinion,\n> as some have already accused me of.\n\nI had a looksie at the site and I think the documentation section [0]\ncould use some TLC. It might be because it's getting late, but there's\nnot really any 'eye catchers', no \"CLICK ME!\" link for someone\nbrowsing around looking for Documentation. In order to find what you\nwant you have to read -a lot- of the page, which I think is a sign\nthat the page would do well with some TLC ;).\nNow I'll admit that the git.or.cz version [1] is a lot worse, but with\nthis being an attempt to make it a lot more newbie friendly...\n\n[0] http://git-scm.com/documentation\n[1] http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitDocumentation\n\nPS: I think you forgot the when you did put up your\nown e-book in the books section but did not put \"Git Magic\" there ;).\n\n-- \nCheers,\n\nSverre Rabbelier\n"},{"id":"84951","messageId":"200807252336.13555.johan@herland.net","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johan Herland","fromEmail":"johan@herland.net","sentAt":"2008-07-25T21:36:13Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T21:36:13Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johan@herland.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/547031?v=4"},"body":"On Friday 25 July 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> Hey all,\n>\n> A followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\n> I forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\n> bit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com. I had meant\n> to discuss this with Petr before posting it to you all, but I\n> published a blog post that got a bit more attention than I expected,\n> and I didn't want you all to think I didn't care about your opinion,\n> as some have already accused me of.\n>\n> Anyhow, I'm discussing with Petr about where we want to go from here -\n> what changes he'd like to make, etc, but I obviously value your\n> opinion as well, so please let me know what you think. The content\n> has barely changed, it's really just a usability overhaul. I want to\n> make sure that whatever someone is looking for (especially someone\n> new), they can find in a few clicks and a few seconds.\n\nThanks for the update. Looks good.\n\nMinor niggle: On the download page, in the Binaries table, Cygwin is listed \nbefore msysGit. I'm under the impression that msysGit is what we really \nwant to be pushing on Windows (it's faster, smaller, and less strange to \nWindows-people (i.e. less Unix-y)), so you might want to switch the order \naround.\n\n\nHave fun!\n\n...Johan\n\n-- \nJohan Herland, \nwww.herland.net\n"},{"id":"84954","messageId":"d411cc4a0807251446k6b7426fbg3ccb2be7de27dc1a@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"bd6139dc0807251420x32e65e73o8db5d77c8b841947@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-25T21:46:09Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T21:46:09Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"I mean to have the new documentation I'm beginning be the\n'eye-catcher' on that page eventually. Not because it's done by me,\nbut because it will be open and I want to encourage people to\ncontribute to it (we must make it perfect, after all) :) However, the\nbig thing is that I couldn't think of a _single_ resource that I would\nwant to point people at. I tried to split everything up\ncategorically, but I don't know what you're looking for being there\nexactly. Thanks for the feedback, though, I'll see what I can do.\n\nAs for my own plug, I feel kinda bad about that, but I have gotten a\nlot of feedback that it's a useful resource and I thought by\nseparating it out into a 'books' section, I had cleanly distinguished\nbetween the corporate sellouts and everyone else :) I have Git Magic\nin the Tutorials section, including a nice plug for it and a link to\nit's source on Github - if it were an e-book (had a pdf version and a\ncover) I would happily put it over there. I would like, however, to\nkeep the downloadable resources seperate from the free online\nresources (though now that I think about it, I should probably put\n\"Git from the Bottom Up\" pdf up there somewhere...). I want people to\nknow they have to shell out money for those greedy bastards projects,\nthough. There will be an O'Reilly book soon, and I'll put that up,\ntoo. If you have other resources that you think are really good, let\nme know so I can add them.\n\nScott\n\nOn Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Sverre Rabbelier wrote:\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 19:35, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>> A followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\n>> I forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\n>> bit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com. I had meant\n>> to discuss this with Petr before posting it to you all, but I\n>> published a blog post that got a bit more attention than I expected,\n>> and I didn't want you all to think I didn't care about your opinion,\n>> as some have already accused me of.\n>\n> I had a looksie at the site and I think the documentation section [0]\n> could use some TLC. It might be because it's getting late, but there's\n> not really any 'eye catchers', no \"CLICK ME!\" link for someone\n> browsing around looking for Documentation. In order to find what you\n> want you have to read -a lot- of the page, which I think is a sign\n> that the page would do well with some TLC ;).\n> Now I'll admit that the git.or.cz version [1] is a lot worse, but with\n> this being an attempt to make it a lot more newbie friendly...\n>\n> [0] http://git-scm.com/documentation\n> [1] http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitDocumentation\n>\n> PS: I think you forgot the when you did put up your\n> own e-book in the books section but did not put \"Git Magic\" there ;).\n>\n> --\n> Cheers,\n>\n> Sverre Rabbelier\n>\n"},{"id":"84957","messageId":"d411cc4a0807251449le917db2u12977045cdd19b93@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"200807252336.13555.johan@herland.net","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-25T21:49:37Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T21:49:37Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Actually, that's directly from git.or.cz - I thought about removing\nthe Cygwin one, but perhaps swapping the order would be better. Any\nthoughts?\n\nScott\n\nOn Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 2:36 PM, Johan Herland wrote:\n> On Friday 25 July 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>> Hey all,\n>\n> Thanks for the update. Looks good.\n>\n> Minor niggle: On the download page, in the Binaries table, Cygwin is listed\n> before msysGit. I'm under the impression that msysGit is what we really\n> want to be pushing on Windows (it's faster, smaller, and less strange to\n> Windows-people (i.e. less Unix-y)), so you might want to switch the order\n> around.\n>\n>\n> Have fun!\n>\n> ...Johan\n>\n> --\n> Johan Herland, \n> www.herland.net\n>\n"},{"id":"84960","messageId":"20080725220217.GE13539@leksak.fem-net","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Stephan Beyer","fromEmail":"s-beyer@gmx.net","sentAt":"2008-07-25T22:02:17Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T22:02:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"s-beyer@gmx.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/143889?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nJust a very short note: I like it ;-)\nAmusing picture.\n\nYou perhaps should switch the page encoding to utf-8, since many\nnames of contributors are broken without.\nI've just taken a view at the XHTML. You have:\n\t\nBut:\n\t\n\nAnd the HTTP server does not set an encoding, as it seems, which is ok.\nSo please change the first line to\n\t\n\nThanks,\n Stephan\n\n-- \nStephan Beyer , PGP 0x6EDDD207FCC5040F\n"},{"id":"84965","messageId":"d411cc4a0807251515q7801a8dfl1798a1976ee1bed8@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080725220217.GE13539@leksak.fem-net","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-25T22:15:18Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T22:15:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Thanks - we're working on validating the pages now. This should be\nfixed shortly.\n\nScott\n\nOn Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Stephan Beyer wrote:\n> Hi,\n>\n> Just a very short note: I like it ;-)\n> Amusing picture.\n>\n> You perhaps should switch the page encoding to utf-8, since many\n> names of contributors are broken without.\n> I've just taken a view at the XHTML. You have:\n> \n> But:\n> \n>\n> And the HTTP server does not set an encoding, as it seems, which is ok.\n> So please change the first line to\n> \n>\n> Thanks,\n> Stephan\n>\n> --\n> Stephan Beyer , PGP 0x6EDDD207FCC5040F\n>\n"},{"id":"84968","messageId":"7v3alxr0fd.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-25T23:47:34Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-25T23:47:34Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"I think counting merges in \"The Authors of Git\" statistics give quite\nskewed numbers. If you are generating it with \"shortlog\", you probably\nwould want to give --no-merges to the command line as well. Also it\nappears that you are not using .mailmap to avoid counting the same person\nas different people.\n\nI find a tabular list like this list easier to read if it were sorted like\nthis:\n\n\tA\tD\tG\n B\tE\tH\n C\tF\n\ni.e. not like this:\n\n\tA\tB\tC\n D\tE\tF\n G\tH\n"},{"id":"84976","messageId":"d411cc4a0807251759m1d83d7c4w4724806b19f7c02a@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7v3alxr0fd.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T00:59:58Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T00:59:58Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Thanks Junio,\n\nI fixed the things you mentioned here, except for the list ordering,\nonly because I kinda think you big contributors should be at the top\nthere, and also because it's slightly more difficult to populate an\nhtml table that way :) If everyone feels strongly about that, though,\nI will change it.\n\nScott\n\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> I think counting merges in \"The Authors of Git\" statistics give quite\n> skewed numbers. If you are generating it with \"shortlog\", you probably\n> would want to give --no-merges to the command line as well. Also it\n> appears that you are not using .mailmap to avoid counting the same person\n> as different people.\n>\n> I find a tabular list like this list easier to read if it were sorted like\n> this:\n>\n> A D G\n> B E H\n> C F\n>\n> i.e. not like this:\n>\n> A B C\n> D E F\n> G H\n>\n>\n"},{"id":"84978","messageId":"6b6419750807251838h12ea4f19gdff107694e3797c4@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Patrick Aljord","fromEmail":"patcito@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T01:38:38Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T01:38:38Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"patcito@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/8a78bf80fcbf4963401d6b1a7d40feb8a773ec3ce7120db291d2ef9c00093635?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Looks fine but this page looks like a big advertising for Github with\nfive links on the middle of the front page + one big logo at the\nbottom.\n"},{"id":"84979","messageId":"20080726015314.GU32184@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T01:53:14Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T01:53:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":" Hi,\n\nOn Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:35:43AM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> Anyhow, I'm discussing with Petr about where we want to go from here -\n> what changes he'd like to make, etc, but I obviously value your\n> opinion as well, so please let me know what you think. The content\n> has barely changed, it's really just a usability overhaul. I want to\n> make sure that whatever someone is looking for (especially someone\n> new), they can find in a few clicks and a few seconds.\n\n when the initial NIH reaction passes, I have to admit that I do rather\nlike it - and it's not only because you keep mentioning how awesome I am\nin your blog post. ;-)\n\n I wonder if all the Git users find the heading rather funny as I did,\ninstead of unprofessional - but maybe we don't care about users without\na particular sense of humor. I'm also not overly fond of the color theme\nbut I'm perhaps just too heavy of a blue fan.\n\n Plenty of minor fixes are available for pull at\n\n\tgit://github.com/pasky/learn-github.git\n\t(http://github.com/pasky/learn-github/tree/master)\n\n(Note that I didn't test whether the pages still look ok with my changes\nsince I have no Ruby on Rails setup; hopefully they should, though.)\n\n Other non-trivial nits:\n\n * I'm feeling a bit uneasy about listing so many projects using Git;\nI haven't heard about quite a few of these and I'm not sure on what\nmerit should we list projects. \"Prototype\" or \"Liftweb\" and probably\neven \"Rubinius\", is that going to ring a bell for major part of visitors\nso that they say \"oh, even _those_ guys are using Git\"?\n\n * Cut the contributors list at 4 or 5 commits? Below that, the list\nis getting fairly useless anyway and you have trouble with keeping the\nnames reasonably well-formed.\n\n * Reusing captions from command manpages in the Documentation page\nshows nicely how awful they sometimes are. :-) This is probably something\nto fix upstream, though.\n\n * Is \"Git for the lazy\" really unique in some regard to deserve to be\nlisted among the other resources? I think we should minimalize\nredundancy at the documentation page, the amount of material is already\noverwhelming and it should be obvious for the visitor which document to\nchoose based on his needs. I have similar doubts about the 37signals\nresources.\n\n\tIn other words, \"let's keep the resources orthogonal!\"\n\n * There is no reference to the Wiki in the documentation, only to the\n[GitDocumentation] page; I think there should be a reference to the\n[GitFaq] page too - a lot of important points that are not obvious\nto newcomers are covered there. I'm just not sure where exactly to put\nthe link.\n\n * I would go as far as put the link to the Wiki itself to the\nnavigation bar, simply since it is such a crucial resource.\n\n * A guide on maintaining third-party patches is currently missing.\n\n * The development page is not referenced anywhere; the missing\ninformation are mailing list details (how to subscribe) and a link to\nSubmittingPatches. Also, I have recently talked with Junio about adding\na link to the Note from the Maintainer, but we didn't yet figure out\nwhere to stabilize the location of that page.\n\n> Next, I will be working on the larger end-user documentation project,\n> which will linked to from the documentation page of this site, and\n> probably the main page too. I'll keep this list updated as I go,\n> since people tend to think I don't care about the community when I try\n> not to waste your time. :)\n\n How does that compare with the Git user manual? Have you considered\ncollaborating on that one, or what are your reasons not to? Or are you\ntrying to do something different?\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"84981","messageId":"20080726020951.GV32184@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726015314.GU32184@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:09:51Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:09:51Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":" Hi,\n\n oops, so I decided to unbundle this question from the previous post,\nbut forgot to modify the subject line...\n\n When the git-scm.com site gets refined a bit further, it might make a\nlot of sense to make http://git.or.cz/index.html a redirect to\nhttp://git-scm.com/ and thus delegate the new site to the official Git\nhomepage. Of course, I would be transferring the control of the homepage\nfrom my hands so I would like to poll the community about how do people\nfeel about this - opinion of core Git contributors would be especially\nwelcome; I find myself rather happy with the new site, so I will\nimplicitly take silence as an agreement.\n\n Here is a breakdown of possible pros and cons that come on my mind:\n\n + The new site has much nicer and more catchy design.\n + The new site seems to have a lot of potential to grow to a rather\ncomprehensive resource.\n + The new site would probably have much more active maintainer. ;-)\n\n - The new site is affiliated with a commercial entity - GitHub.\nThe website maintainer also has commercial interest in some published\nGit learning materials, which might generate certain conflict of\ninterests; we must trust them that they handle this well.\n - Both GitHub and Scott seem to be rather distanced from the \"core\"\nGit development community. This might or might not be an issue.\n - The new site is implemented in much more complicated way than the\nold one, having a full-fledged Ruby on Rails machinery behind it and\nlinking to bunch of obfuscated JavaScript code; I don't think it's that\nbig a deal, though.\n\n The negatives section writeup is longer, but in fact I think the\npositives win here; I also have a bit of bad conscience about not giving\ngit.or.cz the amount of time it would deserve...\n\n P.S.: To simplify matters, I talk only about index.html, but of course\nit would make sense to transfer both the SVN Crash Course _AND_ the Git\nWiki along; we might keep the Cogito homepage for purely historical\ninterest too, I don't know.\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"84982","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260422250.11976@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:25:16Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:25:16Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n\n> A followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\n> I forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\n> bit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com.\n\nI do not like the implication that Git eats trees.\n\nI also do not like that the link to \"Documentation\" looks more like a \ntoo-short cheat-sheet.\n\n> I had meant to discuss this with Petr before posting it to you all, but \n> I published a blog post that got a bit more attention than I expected, \n> and I didn't want you all to think I didn't care about your opinion, as \n> some have already accused me of.\n\nMy first reaction was: he could have given Pasky a little more time to \nreact.\n\nBut then, I think that git.or.cz looks more professional (read: more \nrespectful, less geekish), so I think there is not much harm in that.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"84983","messageId":"d411cc4a0807251928g75744b78vac2ce77bf07fbd81@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"6b6419750807251838h12ea4f19gdff107694e3797c4@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:28:32Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:28:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"5 links in the middle? You mean to the project links? I just choose\nthe biggest, most well known projects I could think of and stuck them\nup there - many of them are at GitHub. If you have a list you like\nbetter, I would be happy to add them, or discuss the final list, but I\nhardly think that's an advertisement for GitHub. As for the link in\nthe footer, that's where I'm hosting my repo for the page, and it's at\nthe bottom of the page and tiny.\n\nI am more concerned about the logo at the bottom, and Petr and I are\ndiscussing this - I can remove the logo, but then I'd have to pay for\nthis out of my pocket instead of having a small logo on the page.\nIt's not bad to host a few webpages, but this will eventually have\ndiagrams and screencasts and whatever else I can do for comprehensive\ndocumentation, which can add up in brandwidth costs (especially the\nscreencasts). The Githubbers have offered to pay for that and host\nmedia and whatnot for the project, backed by a real team of sysadmins.\n That seems like a pretty good deal for a small logo at the bottom of\nthe page. For newbies, that is likely even a good thing - makes them\nsee that there is some corporate interest in it - that it's not just\nan obscure tool for the hard core.\n\nI am open to discussion on that, but I can't change where Ruby on\nRails has decided to host their repo.\n\nScott\n\nOn Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 6:38 PM, Patrick Aljord wrote:\n> Looks fine but this page looks like a big advertising for Github with\n> five links on the middle of the front page + one big logo at the\n> bottom.\n> --\n> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line \"unsubscribe git\" in\n> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org\n> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html\n>\n"},{"id":"84984","messageId":"20080726023312.GW32184@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260422250.11976@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:33:12Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:33:12Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":" Hi,\n\nOn Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 04:25:16AM +0200, Johannes Schindelin wrote:\n> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> \n> > A followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\n> > I forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\n> > bit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com.\n> \n> I do not like the implication that Git eats trees.\n\n yes, I keep wondering about the logo as well. On one side it is rather\namusing, on the other side... somehow it didn't win my heart over and it\n*does* look somewhat unprofessional.\n\n> I also do not like that the link to \"Documentation\" looks more like a \n> too-short cheat-sheet.\n\n I personally don't find the idea of having direct links to the most\nused commands bad, though I'm not sure how useful will it be in\npractice.\n\n> But then, I think that git.or.cz looks more professional (read: more \n> respectful, less geekish), so I think there is not much harm in that.\n\n Note that I tried to fix up a lot of bits that I felt were a little\ntoo colloquial in my patch series I linked in a previous mail.\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"84987","messageId":"20080726023707.GX32184@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251928g75744b78vac2ce77bf07fbd81@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:37:07Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:37:07Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":" Hi,\n\nOn Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 07:28:32PM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> I am more concerned about the logo at the bottom, and Petr and I are\n> discussing this - I can remove the logo, but then I'd have to pay for\n> this out of my pocket instead of having a small logo on the page.\n\n I actually think that this is *one* reference to GitHub that is\nperfectly and 100% okay; if it is sponsoring the hosting, it deserves\nthe logo, and it is fairly non-intrusive. I _am_ watching out warily\nfor excessive GitHub references within the rest of the site - if only\nbecause I have kind of personal interest in a competitor of GitHub and\nthus don't want GitHub to get unwarranted free advertising. :-)\n\n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\n"},{"id":"84988","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260438530.26810@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251928g75744b78vac2ce77bf07fbd81@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:45:34Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:45:34Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n\n> 5 links in the middle?\n\nWhat 5 links in the middle?\n\n*scrolls down*\n\nAh, the top-posting syndrome.\n\nOld quote, but more valid than ever:\n\nA: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.\nQ: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?\nA: Top-posting.\nQ: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?\n\nI find it almost comical that people do not realize how unnaturally they \nbehave, and how hard they make it on their recipients, when they top-post.\n\nOh, and usually, I take top-posting as a clear sign that the poster is not \nworth replying to. Take this mail as a sign that I take care of what you \nsaid, _in spite of_ your top-posting.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"84989","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.10.0807251943280.11335@asgard.lang.hm","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726023707.GX32184@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"","fromEmail":"david@lang.hm","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:47:12Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:47:12Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"david@lang.hm","avatar":null},"body":"On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Petr Baudis wrote:\n\n> Hi,\n>\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 07:28:32PM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>> I am more concerned about the logo at the bottom, and Petr and I are\n>> discussing this - I can remove the logo, but then I'd have to pay for\n>> this out of my pocket instead of having a small logo on the page.\n>\n> I actually think that this is *one* reference to GitHub that is\n> perfectly and 100% okay; if it is sponsoring the hosting, it deserves\n> the logo, and it is fairly non-intrusive. I _am_ watching out warily\n> for excessive GitHub references within the rest of the site - if only\n> because I have kind of personal interest in a competitor of GitHub and\n> thus don't want GitHub to get unwarranted free advertising. :-)\n>\n> \t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\n\nsince this is a Ruby on Rails site, could the 'five links' that have been \nbothering people be randomly selected? if every time you go to the site \nyou get a different list of projects it show how broadly git is used. it's \nnot as 'in your face' as managing to select five that cause people to say \n\"wow, they're using this\", but different people will react to different \nsites.\n\nif this table gets populated by GitHub, kernel.org, and a couple other \nsources it should be vendor independant enough (and we need a table like \nthis anyway for the 'list of projects that use git', so it serves two \npurposes)\n\nDavid Lang\n"},{"id":"84992","messageId":"20080726025402.GF13539@leksak.fem-net","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260422250.11976@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Stephan Beyer","fromEmail":"s-beyer@gmx.net","sentAt":"2008-07-26T02:54:02Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T02:54:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"s-beyer@gmx.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/143889?v=4"},"body":"Johannes Schindelin wrote:\n> I do not like the implication that Git eats trees.\n\nEridius said on IRC:\n \"it's a Git\", \"he's a Blob that's Committed to storing Trees\"\n\n\nI still like the picture, though it can hurt environmentalists.\n\nRegards,\n Stephan\n\n-- \nStephan Beyer , PGP 0x6EDDD207FCC5040F\n"},{"id":"84995","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260506020.26810@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726025402.GF13539@leksak.fem-net","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-26T03:07:02Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T03:07:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Stephan Beyer wrote:\n\n> Johannes Schindelin wrote:\n> > I do not like the implication that Git eats trees.\n> \n> I still like the picture, though it can hurt environmentalists.\n\nIt's not just environmentalists. If I put myself in the shoes of a Git \nnewbie, I would get the impression that Git eats my trees, i.e. destroys \nthem.\n\nVery good first impression.\n\nNot,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"85000","messageId":"7v4p6dnv5k.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726020951.GV32184@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T04:09:43Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T04:09:43Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Petr Baudis writes:\n\n> .... Of course, I would be transferring the control of the homepage\n> from my hands so I would like to poll the community about how do people\n> feel about this - opinion of core Git contributors would be especially\n> welcome...\n> ...\n> - The new site is affiliated with a commercial entity - GitHub.\n> The website maintainer also has commercial interest in some published\n> Git learning materials, which might generate certain conflict of\n> interests; we must trust them that they handle this well.\n> - Both GitHub and Scott seem to be rather distanced from the \"core\"\n> Git development community. This might or might not be an issue.\n\nThese two are directly related. They might be friendly and well-meaning\nfolks, but I agree that they haven't earned our trust yet.\n\nBut I do not think it matters that much.\n\nThe thing is, git.or.cz may have been the closest thing to the \"official\"\nhomepage we have had, but that is not because Linus or I or Shawn declared\nthe site is official and/or that the site is trustworthy. It was because\nyou put efforts preparing the contents worthy to be one-stop shop for git\nrelated information, back when there was no such thing. And the members\nof the comminity found it a good site. And you have the wiki there, where\nthere truly have been community participation to enhance the contents.\n\nFor me personally, pages outside the wiki have never felt like \"the\nofficial git homepage\", not because the contents you prepared were\ninadequate, but because I did not see much community participation to help\nenrich it.\n\nSo I wish the new site success, but the definition of success from my\npoint of view is not how many random visitors it will attract, but how\nwell the site makes the contributors (both to git software itself, and to\nthe site's contents) feel welcomed. Maybe in time it will become\nsuccessful enough by _my_ definition of success, and I may recommend\nkernel.org folks to point at it from http://git.kernel.org/ (link with\ntext \"overview\") if/when that happens, and I may start mentioning them in\nthe \"Note\". We'll see.\n\n> The negatives section writeup is longer, but in fact I think the\n> positives win here; I also have a bit of bad conscience about not giving\n> git.or.cz the amount of time it would deserve...\n\nLet me thank you for maintaining not just git.or.cz/ but also repo.or.cz/\nand the wiki. I personally never visited the \"Homepage\" but the\nrepositories and the wiki are valuable services you gave back to the\ncommunity.\n\nIt's also somewhat interesting to observe that several people I have never\nheard of in the git circle are simultaneously doing new git books,\napparently never asking for much technical advice from core git people, by\nthe way.\n"},{"id":"85003","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260627480.26810@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7v4p6dnv5k.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-26T04:28:47Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T04:28:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> It's also somewhat interesting to observe that several people I have \n> never heard of in the git circle are simultaneously doing new git books, \n> apparently never asking for much technical advice from core git people, \n> by the way.\n\nFWIW my criticism in the same direction was met with ridicule, which does \nnot let me expect much of them.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"85005","messageId":"7vtzedmeqh.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260627480.26810@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T04:49:42Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T04:49:42Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Johannes Schindelin writes:\n\n> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>\n>> It's also somewhat interesting to observe that several people I have \n>> never heard of in the git circle are simultaneously doing new git books, \n>> apparently never asking for much technical advice from core git people, \n>> by the way.\n>\n> FWIW my criticism in the same direction was met with ridicule, which does \n> not let me expect much of them.\n\nOh, mine was not a criticism but was just an observation.\n\nMaybe the folks we consider as \"git community members\" are either too\nnarrow, or too detached from the \"real user community\", and it could be\nthat git books are better written without us.\n\nI am not being sarcastic nor sardonic; we may simply be too close to git,\nwe may have been breathing git for too long, and what feels the most\nnatural thing to be taught first for us may not be the best first thing to\nbe taught to the new people (even though they may eventually grow to think\nlike we do when they become proficient enough).\n"},{"id":"85006","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260652580.26810@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vtzedmeqh.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-26T04:54:06Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T04:54:06Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> Johannes Schindelin writes:\n> \n> we may simply be too close to git, we may have been breathing git for \n> too long, and what feels the most natural thing to be taught first for \n> us may not be the best first thing to be taught to the new people (even \n> though they may eventually grow to think like we do when they become \n> proficient enough).\n\nYet, when I see obvious errors, I have an urge to correct them. I know, \nit is wrong, it is not my itch, and I know I will get crap for it. But I \njust cannot help myself...\n\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"85007","messageId":"d411cc4a0807252155o18083ca0yeae6ac43a5e83bec@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807260506020.26810@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T04:55:50Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T04:55:50Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Johannes Schindelin\n wrote:\n> Hi,\n>\n> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Stephan Beyer wrote:\n>\n>> Johannes Schindelin wrote:\n>> > I do not like the implication that Git eats trees.\n>>\n>> I still like the picture, though it can hurt environmentalists.\n>\n> It's not just environmentalists. If I put myself in the shoes of a Git\n> newbie, I would get the impression that Git eats my trees, i.e. destroys\n> them.\n>\n> Very good first impression.\n>\n> Not,\n> Dscho\n>\n>\n\nI was a bit concerned about using the little guy too, but I've gotten\noverall very good feedback about him - people seem to like him. I\nthink it's good to have a little bit of illustration on a page.\nHowever, as for your concerns, I think a) it's really hard to argue\nthat environmentalists would actually care what that thing is doing\nand b) a newbie to Git will have no idea what a 'tree' is - that is\nreally only a sort of inside joke. You would have to have been using\ngit for a good amount of time to know that 'eating a tree' would be a\nbad thing. That's why I've been telling people that he's _storing_\ntrees and that you don't want to be around when he 'gc --prune's :)\n\nScott \"not top-posting\" Chacon\n"},{"id":"85014","messageId":"d411cc4a0807252230v76670d3cp2205e40826acc6e2@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.10.0807251943280.11335@asgard.lang.hm","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T05:30:29Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T05:30:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 7:47 PM, wrote:\n> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Petr Baudis wrote:\n>\n>> Hi,\n>>\n>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 07:28:32PM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>>>\n>>> I am more concerned about the logo at the bottom, and Petr and I are\n>>> discussing this - I can remove the logo, but then I'd have to pay for\n>>> this out of my pocket instead of having a small logo on the page.\n>>\n>> I actually think that this is *one* reference to GitHub that is\n>> perfectly and 100% okay; if it is sponsoring the hosting, it deserves\n>> the logo, and it is fairly non-intrusive. I _am_ watching out warily\n>> for excessive GitHub references within the rest of the site - if only\n>> because I have kind of personal interest in a competitor of GitHub and\n>> thus don't want GitHub to get unwarranted free advertising. :-)\n>>\n>> Petr \"Pasky\" Baudis\n>\n> since this is a Ruby on Rails site, could the 'five links' that have been\n> bothering people be randomly selected? if every time you go to the site you\n> get a different list of projects it show how broadly git is used. it's not\n> as 'in your face' as managing to select five that cause people to say \"wow,\n> they're using this\", but different people will react to different sites.\n>\n> if this table gets populated by GitHub, kernel.org, and a couple other\n> sources it should be vendor independant enough (and we need a table like\n> this anyway for the 'list of projects that use git', so it serves two\n> purposes)\n>\n> David Lang\n>\n\nI would really like to have the big ones there all the time ('Linux',\n'Ruby on Rails', 'WINE', 'X.org', etc) Prototype and MooTools are\npretty big in the web dev world, which a lot of people are starting to\ncome from - at least Prototype should be there all the time. For the\nrest, if we want to pool a bunch of other projects from different\nplaces, that would be cool, but they should be active - I don't want\npeople clicking on something above the fold and getting a dead\nproject. If someone wants to help me vet a list, I'd be happy to do\nthat.\n\nHowever, that being said, it's going to be difficult to have Github\nprojects not dominate the list a bit. The fact is that it hosts far,\nfar more projects than any other single hosting service. Just in\nfully public projects, the current stats (from the website pages) are\nsomething like this:\n\nkernel.org : 475\nrepo.or.cz : 1,553\ngitorious : 780\ngithub : 10,560\n\nIt hosts far more than that if you include private projects, too. So,\nif we want to choose totally randomly, it's going to be at least a 5:1\nratio between github projects and all other public hosting providers.\nIf anything, statistically, the current list is conservative in it's\nlinks to github projects. For me to avoid using them is artificially\npunishing them for having paid plans, which is silly.\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"85016","messageId":"6b6419750807252249u3c244b3fo65d9e1ee6e8b0ced@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807252230v76670d3cp2205e40826acc6e2@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Patrick Aljord","fromEmail":"patcito@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T05:49:10Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T05:49:10Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"patcito@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/8a78bf80fcbf4963401d6b1a7d40feb8a773ec3ce7120db291d2ef9c00093635?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"How about linking to the project web page or the official blog where\nthe move was announced when available? I think that's how it's done on\nthe mercurial page. And it explains people why the switch was done\nrather then linking to a source repository they might not care about\nand the link to the project page might give a hint about the\nimportance of the given project for those that might not know it (such\nas prototype, mootools or liftweb).\n\nexample:\nhttp://weblog.rubyonrails.org/2008/4/2/rails-is-moving-from-svn-to-git\n"},{"id":"85017","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.10.0807252317050.10571@asgard.lang.hm","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807252230v76670d3cp2205e40826acc6e2@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"","fromEmail":"david@lang.hm","sentAt":"2008-07-26T06:27:17Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T06:27:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"david@lang.hm","avatar":null},"body":"On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 7:47 PM, wrote:\n>> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Petr Baudis wrote:\n>>\n>>> Hi,\n>>>\n>>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 07:28:32PM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>>>>\n>>>> I am more concerned about the logo at the bottom, and Petr and I are\n>>>> discussing this - I can remove the logo, but then I'd have to pay for\n>>>> this out of my pocket instead of having a small logo on the page.\n>>>\n>>> I actually think that this is *one* reference to GitHub that is\n>>> perfectly and 100% okay; if it is sponsoring the hosting, it deserves\n>>> the logo, and it is fairly non-intrusive. I _am_ watching out warily\n>>> for excessive GitHub references within the rest of the site - if only\n>>> because I have kind of personal interest in a competitor of GitHub and\n>>> thus don't want GitHub to get unwarranted free advertising. :-)\n>>>\n>>> Petr \"Pasky\" Baudis\n>>\n>> since this is a Ruby on Rails site, could the 'five links' that have been\n>> bothering people be randomly selected? if every time you go to the site you\n>> get a different list of projects it show how broadly git is used. it's not\n>> as 'in your face' as managing to select five that cause people to say \"wow,\n>> they're using this\", but different people will react to different sites.\n>>\n>> if this table gets populated by GitHub, kernel.org, and a couple other\n>> sources it should be vendor independant enough (and we need a table like\n>> this anyway for the 'list of projects that use git', so it serves two\n>> purposes)\n>>\n>> David Lang\n>>\n>\n> I would really like to have the big ones there all the time ('Linux',\n> 'Ruby on Rails', 'WINE', 'X.org', etc) Prototype and MooTools are\n> pretty big in the web dev world, which a lot of people are starting to\n> come from - at least Prototype should be there all the time. For the\n> rest, if we want to pool a bunch of other projects from different\n> places, that would be cool, but they should be active - I don't want\n> people clicking on something above the fold and getting a dead\n> project. If someone wants to help me vet a list, I'd be happy to do\n> that.\n\nI can see things going either way on this, and I'm sure that the algorithm \nfor the 'best' way to select projects can be tweaked endlessly. I am not \nthat afraid of someone hitting a dead link, especially if you were to list \nthem as 'projects 2,4895,9287,104,18439 of xxxxxx project that have \nreported using git' with numbers that large people expect that some \nprojects will have gone dead, and even if they are all live today, how \nfrequently did you plan to re-check them to decide they are dead? (and \nwhat is your definition of dead?)\n\n> However, that being said, it's going to be difficult to have Github\n> projects not dominate the list a bit. The fact is that it hosts far,\n> far more projects than any other single hosting service. Just in\n> fully public projects, the current stats (from the website pages) are\n> something like this:\n>\n> kernel.org : 475\n> repo.or.cz : 1,553\n> gitorious : 780\n> github : 10,560\n>\n> It hosts far more than that if you include private projects, too. So,\n> if we want to choose totally randomly, it's going to be at least a 5:1\n> ratio between github projects and all other public hosting providers.\n> If anything, statistically, the current list is conservative in it's\n> links to github projects. For me to avoid using them is artificially\n> punishing them for having paid plans, which is silly.\n\nas long as there is a mechanism to add things to the list I don't see \nanything wrong with the frequency reflecting this reality. anyone who \nthinks the numbers are skewed is free to add other projects to the list.\n\npart of this is reducing the room for people to accuse you of impropriaty, \nif you select the links people can accuse you of playing favorites, if \nit's random selection and includes competitors entire lists, it's much \nclearer that you aren't skewing things.\n\nDavid Lang\n"},{"id":"85018","messageId":"d411cc4a0807252343n2b9ade68veaebb68664f0a3d7@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7v4p6dnv5k.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T06:43:55Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T06:43:55Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Petr Baudis writes:\n>\n>> .... Of course, I would be transferring the control of the homepage\n>> from my hands so I would like to poll the community about how do people\n>> feel about this - opinion of core Git contributors would be especially\n>> welcome...\n>> ...\n>> - The new site is affiliated with a commercial entity - GitHub.\n>> The website maintainer also has commercial interest in some published\n>> Git learning materials, which might generate certain conflict of\n>> interests; we must trust them that they handle this well.\n>> - Both GitHub and Scott seem to be rather distanced from the \"core\"\n>> Git development community. This might or might not be an issue.\n>\n> These two are directly related. They might be friendly and well-meaning\n> folks, but I agree that they haven't earned our trust yet.\n>\n> But I do not think it matters that much.\n>\n> The thing is, git.or.cz may have been the closest thing to the \"official\"\n> homepage we have had, but that is not because Linus or I or Shawn declared\n> the site is official and/or that the site is trustworthy. It was because\n> you put efforts preparing the contents worthy to be one-stop shop for git\n> related information, back when there was no such thing. And the members\n> of the comminity found it a good site. And you have the wiki there, where\n> there truly have been community participation to enhance the contents.\n>\n> For me personally, pages outside the wiki have never felt like \"the\n> official git homepage\", not because the contents you prepared were\n> inadequate, but because I did not see much community participation to help\n> enrich it.\n>\n> So I wish the new site success, but the definition of success from my\n> point of view is not how many random visitors it will attract, but how\n> well the site makes the contributors (both to git software itself, and to\n> the site's contents) feel welcomed. Maybe in time it will become\n> successful enough by _my_ definition of success, and I may recommend\n> kernel.org folks to point at it from http://git.kernel.org/ (link with\n> text \"overview\") if/when that happens, and I may start mentioning them in\n> the \"Note\". We'll see.\n>\n>> The negatives section writeup is longer, but in fact I think the\n>> positives win here; I also have a bit of bad conscience about not giving\n>> git.or.cz the amount of time it would deserve...\n>\n> Let me thank you for maintaining not just git.or.cz/ but also repo.or.cz/\n> and the wiki. I personally never visited the \"Homepage\" but the\n> repositories and the wiki are valuable services you gave back to the\n> community.\n>\n> It's also somewhat interesting to observe that several people I have never\n> heard of in the git circle are simultaneously doing new git books,\n> apparently never asking for much technical advice from core git people, by\n> the way.\n>\n\nTo be honest, I have asked for a fair amount of technical advice from\nmany helpful people in the IRC channel over the past few years. In my\ncase, one of my best friends - the guy I've been working with for the\nlast 4 years - is Nick Hengeveld, who has something like 50 commits in\nthere - why email the list when I can yell a question over the cube\nwall? I'm sure you all have more important things to do than review\nmy book for newbies - I asked Nick to do it.\n\nIf I could code C worth a lick, I'm sure I would have contributed more\nto this list, but since I have nothing that I feel would be helpful to\nyou, I've passively followed the list. I'm sorry that you do not\nconsider me a \"git community member\" just because I don't code C, and\nso I can't contribute helpfully to core.\n\nHowever, I have evangelized Git in person to literally thousands of\npeople, and tens of thousands more online. GitHub hosts over 10,000\npublic git projects completely for free, and has contributed a ton\nback to the community, both in code and proselytization efforts.\n\nI hope these things can be taken as proof that we are not simply\nfriendly and well meaning, but that we have contributed meaningfully\nto the adoption of Git and are just as committed to it's improvement\nand success as nearly anyone on this list.\n\nWe want to help - help you with resources, help new people learn git\nquickly and easily, and help the unconverted see the light. We highly\nrespect you guys and most of the time you don't hear from us because\nwe don't want to bother you and take your time away from improving our\nfavorite tool.\n\nFeel free to contact or email me at any time with questions, or\nsuggestions for improvement - schacon on IRC, schacon at gmail, or\nthescottchacon on AIM.\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"85021","messageId":"d411cc4a0807260007i26791084lce6b6a8d74b831cc@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726015314.GU32184@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T07:07:03Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T07:07:03Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Petr Baudis wrote:\n> Hi,\n>\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 10:35:43AM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>> Anyhow, I'm discussing with Petr about where we want to go from here -\n>> what changes he'd like to make, etc, but I obviously value your\n>> opinion as well, so please let me know what you think. The content\n>> has barely changed, it's really just a usability overhaul. I want to\n>> make sure that whatever someone is looking for (especially someone\n>> new), they can find in a few clicks and a few seconds.\n>\n> when the initial NIH reaction passes, I have to admit that I do rather\n> like it - and it's not only because you keep mentioning how awesome I am\n> in your blog post. ;-)\n>\n> I wonder if all the Git users find the heading rather funny as I did,\n> instead of unprofessional - but maybe we don't care about users without\n> a particular sense of humor. I'm also not overly fond of the color theme\n> but I'm perhaps just too heavy of a blue fan.\n>\n> Plenty of minor fixes are available for pull at\n>\n> git://github.com/pasky/learn-github.git\n> (http://github.com/pasky/learn-github/tree/master)\n\nI've pulled in all this stuff and it should be live now.\n\n>\n> Other non-trivial nits:\n>\n> * I'm feeling a bit uneasy about listing so many projects using Git;\n> I haven't heard about quite a few of these and I'm not sure on what\n> merit should we list projects. \"Prototype\" or \"Liftweb\" and probably\n> even \"Rubinius\", is that going to ring a bell for major part of visitors\n> so that they say \"oh, even _those_ guys are using Git\"?\n\nBased on a conversation in the other thread, I think we should have a\nlist that is suggested by the community and just have the 3 or 4 that\nare really famous (Git, Linux, RoR...) and have the rest randomly\npulled from that list - changed every day or so.\n\n\n> * Cut the contributors list at 4 or 5 commits? Below that, the list\n> is getting fairly useless anyway and you have trouble with keeping the\n> names reasonably well-formed.\n\nDone and pushed.\n\n> * Reusing captions from command manpages in the Documentation page\n> shows nicely how awful they sometimes are. :-) This is probably something\n> to fix upstream, though.\n\nI saw you changed some of these, I can take another pass. I'm not\nentirely sure how useful it is to have the commands on that page, to\ntell the truth. This may go away as the documentation page evolves.\n\n> * Is \"Git for the lazy\" really unique in some regard to deserve to be\n> listed among the other resources? I think we should minimalize\n> redundancy at the documentation page, the amount of material is already\n> overwhelming and it should be obvious for the visitor which document to\n> choose based on his needs. I have similar doubts about the 37signals\n> resources.\n>\n> In other words, \"let's keep the resources orthogonal!\"\n\nI agree - I would like to pull a lot of the information in those links\ninto one open-source book that is kept up by the community and hosted\nat this page. The documentation page will change significantly as we\ntry to simplify and maximize the usefulness of the page.\n\n> * There is no reference to the Wiki in the documentation, only to the\n> [GitDocumentation] page; I think there should be a reference to the\n> [GitFaq] page too - a lot of important points that are not obvious\n> to newcomers are covered there. I'm just not sure where exactly to put\n> the link.\n>\n> * I would go as far as put the link to the Wiki itself to the\n> navigation bar, simply since it is such a crucial resource.\n\n\nPerhaps I should just do this - would that cover the previous one as well?\n\n\n> * A guide on maintaining third-party patches is currently missing.\n>\n> * The development page is not referenced anywhere; the missing\n> information are mailing list details (how to subscribe) and a link to\n> SubmittingPatches. Also, I have recently talked with Junio about adding\n> a link to the Note from the Maintainer, but we didn't yet figure out\n> where to stabilize the location of that page.\n\nI would be happy to put the note somewhere, and I will work on getting\nthe other few pages from the original site put up and linked\nsomewhere.\n\n> How does that compare with the Git user manual? Have you considered\n> collaborating on that one, or what are your reasons not to? Or are you\n> trying to do something different?\n\nI would like to - I have personally found that invaluable in learning\nGit, but I would like it to be more digestible and I would like to add\na lot of supporting media to it - screencasts and diagrams, to help\npeople that are more visual learners. Loading up a document where the\nTOC is several pages long is intimidating and difficult to start and\nstop with.\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"85023","messageId":"7vtzedktmi.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807252343n2b9ade68veaebb68664f0a3d7@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T07:11:01Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T07:11:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"\"Scott Chacon\" writes:\n\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>> ...\n>> These two are directly related. They might be friendly and well-meaning\n>> folks, but I agree that they haven't earned our trust yet.\n>>\n>> But I do not think it matters that much.\n>> ...\n>> It's also somewhat interesting to observe that several people I have never\n>> heard of in the git circle are simultaneously doing new git books,\n>> apparently never asking for much technical advice from core git people, by\n>> the way.\n>\n> To be honest, I have asked for a fair amount of technical advice from\n> many helpful people in the IRC channel over the past few years. In my\n> case, one of my best friends - the guy I've been working with for the\n> last 4 years - is Nick Hengeveld, who has something like 50 commits in\n> there - why email the list when I can yell a question over the cube\n> wall? I'm sure you all have more important things to do than review\n> my book for newbies - I asked Nick to do it.\n\nAh, Nick. We haven't heard from him for quite some time. I've actually\nbeen missed him from time to time whenever http related issues came up.\nPlease say hello to him for me ;-).\n\n> If I could code C worth a lick, I'm sure I would have contributed more\n> to this list, but since I have nothing that I feel would be helpful to\n> you, I've passively followed the list. I'm sorry that you do not\n> consider me a \"git community member\" just because I don't code C, and\n> so I can't contribute helpfully to core.\n\nI realize I may have sounded somewhat harsh, but that was not my\nintention. And I do not think what you said is fair, either.\n\nWe have had quite a few end user questions on this list, but I do not seem\nto recall any of the names of the book writers, whose books are presumably\naimed at these people, answering them. Granted, core coders may be busy\nbunch of people, and the questions and comments from new people sometimes\ntend to be lost in flurry of patch floods. I and other core coders would\nhave greatly appreciated if non-coder experts like yourself helped these\nthreads that have never panned out.\n\nI am not complaining. This cuts both ways. The patch floods do tend to\ndiscourage new people from asking basic questions, and lack of answers\neven more so. But it is not healthy for people who design and code not to\nhear end user feedback. I personally would want to see the list traffic\nto be inclusive.\n\nThe people who design the new features and write code should have easy\naccess to the issues the users of all levels have with the software and\nthe documentation (and what they find useful as well). What I am most\nafraid of is that both \"We do not bother the coders\" and \"We are too busy\nto answer every newbie question\" mentalities would lead to a fractured\ncommunity.\n"},{"id":"85024","messageId":"46a038f90807260021t429688delacfdf20d01ff7810@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807252155o18083ca0yeae6ac43a5e83bec@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Martin Langhoff","fromEmail":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T07:21:06Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T07:21:06Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1e3f311b6c4c15836501901ca58f8c0b0667246488084ba524d8bc9867e22fd9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> I was a bit concerned about using the little guy too, but I've gotten\n> overall very good feedback about him - people seem to like him. I\n> think it's good to have a little bit of illustration on a page.\n\nIt's clearly an inside joke, but I like it. And let's have the\nenvironmentalists-with-a-sense-of-humour with us. The others can use\nsomething else :-)\n\n\n\nm\n-- \n martin.langhoff@gmail.com\n martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect\n - ask interesting questions\n - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first\n - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff\n"},{"id":"85025","messageId":"d411cc4a0807260027t4b9c3b08x1f865ec75d976ef6@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vtzedktmi.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T07:27:32Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T07:27:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Perhaps it would be useful to split the mailing list into core/contrib\nand support lists? I would be happy to help out answering questions -\na lot of them come directly to me anyhow because of the gitcasts site\nand such.\n\nScott\n\nOn Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:11 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> \"Scott Chacon\" writes:\n>\n>> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>>> ...\n>>> These two are directly related. They might be friendly and well-meaning\n>>> folks, but I agree that they haven't earned our trust yet.\n>>>\n>>> But I do not think it matters that much.\n>>> ...\n>>> It's also somewhat interesting to observe that several people I have never\n>>> heard of in the git circle are simultaneously doing new git books,\n>>> apparently never asking for much technical advice from core git people, by\n>>> the way.\n>>\n>> To be honest, I have asked for a fair amount of technical advice from\n>> many helpful people in the IRC channel over the past few years. In my\n>> case, one of my best friends - the guy I've been working with for the\n>> last 4 years - is Nick Hengeveld, who has something like 50 commits in\n>> there - why email the list when I can yell a question over the cube\n>> wall? I'm sure you all have more important things to do than review\n>> my book for newbies - I asked Nick to do it.\n>\n> Ah, Nick. We haven't heard from him for quite some time. I've actually\n> been missed him from time to time whenever http related issues came up.\n> Please say hello to him for me ;-).\n>\n>> If I could code C worth a lick, I'm sure I would have contributed more\n>> to this list, but since I have nothing that I feel would be helpful to\n>> you, I've passively followed the list. I'm sorry that you do not\n>> consider me a \"git community member\" just because I don't code C, and\n>> so I can't contribute helpfully to core.\n>\n> I realize I may have sounded somewhat harsh, but that was not my\n> intention. And I do not think what you said is fair, either.\n>\n> We have had quite a few end user questions on this list, but I do not seem\n> to recall any of the names of the book writers, whose books are presumably\n> aimed at these people, answering them. Granted, core coders may be busy\n> bunch of people, and the questions and comments from new people sometimes\n> tend to be lost in flurry of patch floods. I and other core coders would\n> have greatly appreciated if non-coder experts like yourself helped these\n> threads that have never panned out.\n>\n> I am not complaining. This cuts both ways. The patch floods do tend to\n> discourage new people from asking basic questions, and lack of answers\n> even more so. But it is not healthy for people who design and code not to\n> hear end user feedback. I personally would want to see the list traffic\n> to be inclusive.\n>\n> The people who design the new features and write code should have easy\n> access to the issues the users of all levels have with the software and\n> the documentation (and what they find useful as well). What I am most\n> afraid of is that both \"We do not bother the coders\" and \"We are too busy\n> to answer every newbie question\" mentalities would lead to a fractured\n> community.\n>\n"},{"id":"85028","messageId":"bd6139dc0807260052i1985cbc4y4a5552cb500211a3@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807260027t4b9c3b08x1f865ec75d976ef6@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Sverre Rabbelier","fromEmail":"alturin@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T07:52:56Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T07:52:56Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"alturin@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 09:27, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> Perhaps it would be useful to split the mailing list into core/contrib\n> and support lists? I would be happy to help out answering questions -\n> a lot of them come directly to me anyhow because of the gitcasts site\n> and such.\n>\n> Scott \"no_w_ top-posting\" Chacon\n\nThere, fixed that for you.\n\n-- \nCheers,\n\nSverre Rabbelier\n"},{"id":"85029","messageId":"m3hcadul6j.fsf@localhost.localdomain","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251035i7aed2ec9wef7e8f1b3ae4c585@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T08:03:26Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T08:03:26Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"\"Scott Chacon\" writes:\n\n> A followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\n> I forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\n> bit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com. I had meant\n> to discuss this with Petr before posting it to you all, but I\n> published a blog post that got a bit more attention than I expected,\n> and I didn't want you all to think I didn't care about your opinion,\n> as some have already accused me of.\n\nOn thing I am curious about: how do you plan to have current version\nof Git in the download / last version section? Petr Baudis uses\ncustom script, which search git mailing list for \"[ANNOUNCE]\" posts,\nand automatically updates download / last version links.\n\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\nShadeHawk on #git\n"},{"id":"85030","messageId":"7vk5f9jchn.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"6b6419750807252249u3c244b3fo65d9e1ee6e8b0ced@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T08:06:28Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T08:06:28Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"\"Patrick Aljord\" writes:\n\n> How about linking to the project web page or the official blog where\n> the move was announced when available? I think that's how it's done on\n> the mercurial page. And it explains people why the switch was done\n> rather then linking to a source repository they might not care about\n> and the link to the project page might give a hint about the\n> importance of the given project for those that might not know it (such\n> as prototype, mootools or liftweb).\n\nYou have to work harder to do the real research to find such key\nhistorical documents than just linking to the toplevel of the current\nrepository, but I think this is an excellent idea. And most likely many\nprojects that have migrated from elsewhere (not the ones from scratch that\ndid not migrate from any existing codebase) could volunteer relevant links\nif asked politely enough ;-)\n"},{"id":"85054","messageId":"20080726130757.GY32184@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"m3hcadul6j.fsf@localhost.localdomain","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T13:07:57Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T13:07:57Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 01:03:26AM -0700, Jakub Narebski wrote:\n> \"Scott Chacon\" writes:\n> \n> > A followup on the post I did a few days ago about Git documentation.\n> > I forked Petr's git.or.cz site and put up a version that I think is a\n> > bit more accessible and newbie-friendly at git-scm.com. I had meant\n> > to discuss this with Petr before posting it to you all, but I\n> > published a blog post that got a bit more attention than I expected,\n> > and I didn't want you all to think I didn't care about your opinion,\n> > as some have already accused me of.\n> \n> On thing I am curious about: how do you plan to have current version\n> of Git in the download / last version section? Petr Baudis uses\n> custom script, which search git mailing list for \"[ANNOUNCE]\" posts,\n> and automatically updates download / last version links.\n\nActually, I scan the last tag on maint branch using git descirbe; the\nANNOUNCE posts are scanned by the RSS feed. Originally, git-scm scanned\nkernel.org download directory for the latest tarball, but it seemed that\nwould break on something like the 1.4.4.5, so it also moved to the git\ndescribe method:\n\n\thttp://repo.or.cz/w/git-homepage.git?a=blob;f=update.sh\n\thttp://github.com/schacon/learn-github/tree/master/script/get_version.rb\n\nOne Scott's concern that didn't occur to me was that a the time of\nrelease, we could have broken links between the time tag is created and\ntarballs are wrapped up. I *think* that in practice, this happens at the\nsame time, I wonder if Junio could confirm that.\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"85059","messageId":"20080726141747.GS10151@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807260007i26791084lce6b6a8d74b831cc@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T14:17:47Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T14:17:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":" Hi,\n\nOn Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:07:03AM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 6:53 PM, Petr Baudis wrote:\n> > Plenty of minor fixes are available for pull at\n> >\n> > git://github.com/pasky/learn-github.git\n> > (http://github.com/pasky/learn-github/tree/master)\n> \n> I've pulled in all this stuff and it should be live now.\n\n thanks.\n\n> >\n> > Other non-trivial nits:\n> >\n> > * I'm feeling a bit uneasy about listing so many projects using Git;\n> > I haven't heard about quite a few of these and I'm not sure on what\n> > merit should we list projects. \"Prototype\" or \"Liftweb\" and probably\n> > even \"Rubinius\", is that going to ring a bell for major part of visitors\n> > so that they say \"oh, even _those_ guys are using Git\"?\n> \n> Based on a conversation in the other thread, I think we should have a\n> list that is suggested by the community and just have the 3 or 4 that\n> are really famous (Git, Linux, RoR...) and have the rest randomly\n> pulled from that list - changed every day or so.\n\n Maybe it is because of my general background, but I think X.org, WINE\nand Fedora (probably in this order) really belong to the list as well.\nIf you say Prototype and MooTools are huge projects that are very\nwell-known in the web programmer community too, it makes sense to\ninclude them as well; and that would be it. I might add\n\n\t

...and many more

\n\nbelow the list.\n\n Having some of the list randomly generated is an interesting idea, but\nit should be clearly visually separated from the static part, and it\nwould probably take a bit of work to tune this to show only interesting\nprojects ($size * sqrt(activity)$ or something).\n\n> > * Reusing captions from command manpages in the Documentation page\n> > shows nicely how awful they sometimes are. :-) This is probably something\n> > to fix upstream, though.\n> \n> I saw you changed some of these, I can take another pass. I'm not\n> entirely sure how useful it is to have the commands on that page, to\n> tell the truth. This may go away as the documentation page evolves.\n\n I agree. I changed none though, I just reordered some of the commands.\n\n> > * Is \"Git for the lazy\" really unique in some regard to deserve to be\n> > listed among the other resources? I think we should minimalize\n> > redundancy at the documentation page, the amount of material is already\n> > overwhelming and it should be obvious for the visitor which document to\n> > choose based on his needs. I have similar doubts about the 37signals\n> > resources.\n> >\n> > In other words, \"let's keep the resources orthogonal!\"\n> \n> I agree - I would like to pull a lot of the information in those links\n> into one open-source book that is kept up by the community and hosted\n> at this page. The documentation page will change significantly as we\n> try to simplify and maximize the usefulness of the page.\n\n But that's a long-term project, I'm talking about the usefulness of\nsome of the links right now.\n\n> > * There is no reference to the Wiki in the documentation, only to the\n> > [GitDocumentation] page; I think there should be a reference to the\n> > [GitFaq] page too - a lot of important points that are not obvious\n> > to newcomers are covered there. I'm just not sure where exactly to put\n> > the link.\n> >\n> > * I would go as far as put the link to the Wiki itself to the\n> > navigation bar, simply since it is such a crucial resource.\n> \n> \n> Perhaps I should just do this - would that cover the previous one as well?\n\n It seems you did, which is great! I think there should be a direct FAQ\nlink as well, though.\n\n> > How does that compare with the Git user manual? Have you considered\n> > collaborating on that one, or what are your reasons not to? Or are you\n> > trying to do something different?\n> \n> I would like to - I have personally found that invaluable in learning\n> Git, but I would like it to be more digestible and I would like to add\n> a lot of supporting media to it - screencasts and diagrams, to help\n> people that are more visual learners. Loading up a document where the\n> TOC is several pages long is intimidating and difficult to start and\n> stop with.\n\n Making it more digestible is certainly a worthy goal. :-) I think both\nscreencasts and diagrams could be valuable for the user manual, but\nthe question is how to best integrate them into the manual and if it\nmakes sense to do this within the Git tree, or how to cross-merge.\nHowever, at the documentation side I focus pretty much exclusively on\nimproving the reference documentation, so that's not for me to discuss.\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"85061","messageId":"20080726144040.GZ32184@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vtzedmeqh.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T14:40:40Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T14:40:40Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 09:49:42PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Johannes Schindelin writes:\n> \n> > On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> >\n> >> It's also somewhat interesting to observe that several people I have \n> >> never heard of in the git circle are simultaneously doing new git books, \n> >> apparently never asking for much technical advice from core git people, \n> >> by the way.\n\n I would say we actually worked hard to make itpossible to understand\nGit without being a Git contributor and knowing the code inside-out,\ndidn't we? So in a sense, having books about Git written by people\noutside of the developer community could be considered a certain\nmilestone for Git usability. At least provided the books are good, and\nreading the excerpts from\n\n\thttp://www.pragprog.com/titles/tsgit/pragmatic-version-control-using-git\n\nhas been a little disturbing experience at times. Then again, it is an\nearly alpha probably far before technical editing, so it is too early\nto draw conclusions. (And after doing technical editing for a very thick\nCzech book on low-level Linux programming, my standards for this phase\nof book development had to be... somewhat lowered. ;-)\n\n> Oh, mine was not a criticism but was just an observation.\n> \n> Maybe the folks we consider as \"git community members\" are either too\n> narrow, or too detached from the \"real user community\", and it could be\n> that git books are better written without us.\n\n The numbers in another part of the thread show something important -\nGitHub is more than SIX TIMES BIGGER than repo.or.cz! How many of you\nhave GitHub accounts, and how many of you are actively using repo.or.cz?\n:-) And GitHub is not \"just\" Ruby on Rails *at all*:\n\n\thttp://github.com/blog/99-popular-languages\n\nOverally, it seems that Git is getting huge traction in the web\ndevelopers community while this is something I would presume the core\nGit community of kernel hackers and such is mostly unaware of (and it is\nsomewhat amusing contrast). Now, these are people who we will probably\nnever see on the mailing list, not just because they frequently don't\neven know C, and don't care to, but they might have actually never used\na mailing list before! These are the people who frequently could not\ncare about their VCS' internals less and finding out that Git works well\nenough for them is something rather satisfying for me personally.\n\n I don't know if this should have any immediate effect on how we\ndevelop Git etc., but I think it is good to be aware of the fact that\nsilently, huge amount of \"dark mass\" Git projects is accumulating and\nthat Git is making headways in areas many of us were little aware of.\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"85062","messageId":"488B394F.9000300@keyaccess.nl","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807260027t4b9c3b08x1f865ec75d976ef6@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Rene Herman","fromEmail":"rene.herman@keyaccess.nl","sentAt":"2008-07-26T14:48:47Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T14:48:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"rene.herman@keyaccess.nl","avatar":null},"body":"On 26-07-08 09:27, Scott Chacon wrote:\n\n> Perhaps it would be useful to split the mailing list into\n> core/contrib and support lists? I would be happy to help out\n> answering questions - a lot of them come directly to me anyhow\n> because of the gitcasts site and such.\n\nA git-user list would be welcomed at least by me. It remains to be seen \nhow useful it would be (and stay) as often the user lists for a project \ndwinddle a bit but I've subcribed and unsubscribed to this list a number \nof times now since unless I've a specific question to ask, the list is \ntoo busy too just sit around on; I end up deleting all list mail unread \nevery night anyway, so I just unsubcribe again.\n\nMaybe a less busy and less implementation focussed list could help \"me \nand mine\" gradually pick up new tips and tricks. Depends ofcourse on \nwillingness of some of the more proficient to be involved in that list \nas well...\n\nRene.\n"},{"id":"85070","messageId":"20080726151532.GT10151@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vtzedktmi.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T15:15:32Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T15:15:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:11:01AM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> The people who design the new features and write code should have easy\n> access to the issues the users of all levels have with the software and\n> the documentation (and what they find useful as well). What I am most\n> afraid of is that both \"We do not bother the coders\" and \"We are too busy\n> to answer every newbie question\" mentalities would lead to a fractured\n> community.\n\nThe community is already fractured! I think we actually have very tiny\nfraction of the user base on the mailing list - the traffic is simply\ntoo massive. After all we chose _our_ convenience over _users'_\nconvenience in making this tradeoff. Also, as I mentioned in the other\nmail, it's not obvious to me whether major part of our community would\nbe willing to participate in any mailing list at all.\n\n(Note that I don't want to imply that this would be inherently a Bad\nThing. Some feedback still bubbles through and we have ways like Jakub's\nGit User Survey as well. Maybe the user community is by now simply too\nbig to make the direct cross-pollination with developers feasible.)\n\nThere was a proposal some time ago for making a web forum for Git; maybe\nwe were too dismissive to the suggestion. I wonder where *do* these 100k\nof registered GitHubbers get their Git support now? :-)\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"85072","messageId":"m3d4l0vfgk.fsf@localhost.localdomain","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"488B394F.9000300@keyaccess.nl","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T15:21:36Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T15:21:36Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"Rene Herman writes:\n\n> On 26-07-08 09:27, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> \n> > Perhaps it would be useful to split the mailing list into\n> > core/contrib and support lists? I would be happy to help out\n> > answering questions - a lot of them come directly to me anyhow\n> > because of the gitcasts site and such.\n> \n> A git-user list would be welcomed at least by me. It remains to be\n> seen how useful it would be (and stay) as often the user lists for a\n> project dwinddle a bit but I've subcribed and unsubscribed to this\n> list a number of times now since unless I've a specific question to\n> ask, the list is too busy too just sit around on; I end up deleting\n> all list mail unread every night anyway, so I just unsubcribe again.\n> \n> Maybe a less busy and less implementation focused list could help \"me\n> and mine\" gradually pick up new tips and tricks. Depends ofcourse on\n> willingness of some of the more proficient to be involved in that list\n> as well...\n\nWell, there _is_ separate Git Users Group at Google Groups\n http://groups.google.com/group/git-users\n nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git.user\n\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\nShadeHawk on #git\n"},{"id":"85075","messageId":"d411cc4a0807260832g21fc9a66yd5ccc370699993fd@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"m3d4l0vfgk.fsf@localhost.localdomain","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T15:32:19Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T15:32:19Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Jakub Narebski wrote:\n> Rene Herman writes:\n>\n>> On 26-07-08 09:27, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>>\n>> > Perhaps it would be useful to split the mailing list into\n>> > core/contrib and support lists? I would be happy to help out\n>> > answering questions - a lot of them come directly to me anyhow\n>> > because of the gitcasts site and such.\n>>\n>> A git-user list would be welcomed at least by me. It remains to be\n>> seen how useful it would be (and stay) as often the user lists for a\n>> project dwinddle a bit but I've subcribed and unsubscribed to this\n>> list a number of times now since unless I've a specific question to\n>> ask, the list is too busy too just sit around on; I end up deleting\n>> all list mail unread every night anyway, so I just unsubcribe again.\n>>\n>> Maybe a less busy and less implementation focused list could help \"me\n>> and mine\" gradually pick up new tips and tricks. Depends ofcourse on\n>> willingness of some of the more proficient to be involved in that list\n>> as well...\n>\n> Well, there _is_ separate Git Users Group at Google Groups\n> http://groups.google.com/group/git-users\n> nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git.user\n>\n> --\n> Jakub Narebski\n> Poland\n> ShadeHawk on #git\n>\n\nPerhaps I should link to that on git-scm as well / instead?\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"85080","messageId":"200807261739.30261.jnareb@gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807260832g21fc9a66yd5ccc370699993fd@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T15:39:29Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T15:39:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, 26 July 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 8:21 AM, Jakub Narebski wrote:\n>> Rene Herman writes:\n>>> On 26-07-08 09:27, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>>>\n>>>> Perhaps it would be useful to split the mailing list into\n>>>> core/contrib and support lists? [...]\n>>>\n>>> A git-user list would be welcomed at least by me. [...]\n>>\n>> Well, there _is_ separate Git Users Group at Google Groups\n>> http://groups.google.com/group/git-users\n>> nntp://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git.user\n\nIt is mentioned at http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitCommunity at the end\nof the wiki page.\n\n> Perhaps I should link to that on git-scm as well / instead?\n\n\"As well\" I can agree with. \"Instead\" I'm against that.\n\nGit mailing list doesn't require subscription, and allow sending\nemails using Usenet/news reader from GMane NNTP interface/gateway.\nNot so with Google Group.\n\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\n"},{"id":"85081","messageId":"F3D70DCD-E9A9-42C3-8870-ABB7EECF83CC@wincent.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807252230v76670d3cp2205e40826acc6e2@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Wincent Colaiuta","fromEmail":"win@wincent.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T15:48:42Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T15:48:42Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"greg@hurrell.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/7074?v=4"},"body":"El 26/7/2008, a las 7:30, Scott Chacon escribió:\n\n> However, that being said, it's going to be difficult to have Github\n> projects not dominate the list a bit. The fact is that it hosts far,\n> far more projects than any other single hosting service. Just in\n> fully public projects, the current stats (from the website pages) are\n> something like this:\n>\n> kernel.org : 475\n> repo.or.cz : 1,553\n> gitorious : 780\n> github : 10,560\n>\n> It hosts far more than that if you include private projects, too. So,\n> if we want to choose totally randomly, it's going to be at least a 5:1\n> ratio between github projects and all other public hosting providers.\n\n\nI think those numbers are pretty meaningless seeing as GitHub \nencourages people to publish \"forks\" of other projects. Rails, for \nexample, has about 270 forks at the time of writing. If I scan the \nlist of popular projects I see fork counts like 129, 105, 78 and 78 \n(again). Are all the forks counted in that figure of 10,560 that you \ncount? How many \"real\" projects are hosted there?\n\nI'd like to see the \"official\" Git homepage as distanced as possible \nfrom GitHub. They've taken Git (free as in speech, free as in beer) \nand built a closed-source commercial product on top of it -- curiously \nfor something which you can do for free yourself anyway -- and as far \nas I can tell from observing this mailing list and watching the \ncommits going into git.git, haven't ever contributed _anything_ back \nto the community. At least within the niche that is the Ruby/Rails \ncommunity, GitHub has basically done a hijack job and managed to \nbecome synonymous with Git, supplanting it, and it's a trend that I \nwouldn't like to see continue.\n\nJust my personal opinion, but GitHub doesn't provoke any warm fuzzy \nfeelings here. Quite the contrary. I actively dislike it.\n\nCheers,\nWincent\n"},{"id":"85086","messageId":"7v8wvok3f6.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726144040.GZ32184@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T16:37:01Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T16:37:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Petr Baudis writes:\n\n> I don't know if this should have any immediate effect on how we\n> develop Git etc., but I think it is good to be aware of the fact that\n> silently, huge amount of \"dark mass\" Git projects is accumulating and\n> that Git is making headways in areas many of us were little aware of.\n\nThe developer community and \"dark matter\" community are totally separate\nentities that do not interact with each other very much, and they will go\ntheir separate ways? I think it is inevitable for any project once it\nbecomes popular enough.\n\nWhere does this observation lead us in this \"Official\" git homepage\ndiscussion? Perhaps the conclusion would be that there does not have to\nbe any _single_ official home? I dunno.\n"},{"id":"85090","messageId":"18071eea0807260948r333d4bfp9e89f85909621831@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7v8wvok3f6.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Thomas Adam","fromEmail":"thomas.adam22@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T16:48:05Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T16:48:05Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"thomas.adam22@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/137f9858bc6bfd5b2f743aefd988c81ce0cbd306248889df80e269519cfc8741?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"2008/7/26 Junio C Hamano :\n> Where does this observation lead us in this \"Official\" git homepage\n> discussion? Perhaps the conclusion would be that there does not have to\n> be any _single_ official home? I dunno.\n\nI would disagree. If there is already a sporadic mess of GIT-related\ninformation, not having somewhere \"official\" to collate and track\ndevelopment changes in documentation, etc., could be very confusing\nindeed. There is no guarantee these so-called \"dark-matter\" people\nwould ever get around to updating anything they're currently writing\nwhich would be disasterous.\n\n-- Thomas Adam\n"},{"id":"85095","messageId":"7vsktwfu5z.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807251759m1d83d7c4w4724806b19f7c02a@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T17:10:32Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T17:10:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"\"Scott Chacon\" writes:\n\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>> ...\n>> I find a tabular list like this list easier to read if it were sorted like\n>> this:\n>>\n>> A D G\n>> B E H\n>> C F\n>> ...\n>\n> I fixed the things you mentioned here, except for the list ordering,\n> only because I kinda think you big contributors should be at the top\n> there,...\n\nIf you are going to list 30 or so top contributors in 8 rows times 4\ncolumns, because visually the columns are much more distinct than the\nrows, it makes the result look more sorted. This is the same reasoning\nhwo \"git help --all\" was fixed with 112d0ba (Make \"git help\" sort git\ncommands in columns, 2005-12-18).\n\nBy the way, I think this shows another issue with the \"rest of us\" list in\nthe lower half.\n\nI have a mild suspicion that sorting that list in alphabetical order may\nactually make it much better. It all depends on the purpose of that list,\nthough.\n\nThe purpose of the list would most likely not to find somebody with high\nactivity to contact for help (you would use the top list that is sorted by\nthe commit count for that kind of thing). It would primarily be to give\ncredit to everybody, and perhaps so that people on the contributor list\ncan point at their own name and say \"I helped them\", or find somebody else\nthey happen to know in the list.\n\nWhen a contributor used to have 8 commits and then adds 2 commits, that\nwould move the name in the list by a dozen places or so with the current\nset of contributors. It would be much easier to locate one's own name\namong a huge list if the names are alphabetically sorted, not by commit\ncount. When more people start to contribute, your name does not move so\ndrastically. If you are Adam, you are likely to find yourself near the\nbeginning of the list, if you are Scott, you are likely to find yourself\nnear one fourth from the end of the list.\n\nAnd for the \"giving credit\" purpose, I do not think truncating the list at\n5 commits or less threshold, as suggested earlier and already done, makes\nmuch sense, either.\n"},{"id":"85103","messageId":"d411cc4a0807261133w6f068176y5c4a23c887da8ed3@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"F3D70DCD-E9A9-42C3-8870-ABB7EECF83CC@wincent.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T18:33:49Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T18:33:49Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:\n> El 26/7/2008, a las 7:30, Scott Chacon escribió:\n>\n>> However, that being said, it's going to be difficult to have Github\n>> projects not dominate the list a bit. The fact is that it hosts far,\n>> far more projects than any other single hosting service. Just in\n>> fully public projects, the current stats (from the website pages) are\n>> something like this:\n>>\n>> kernel.org : 475\n>> repo.or.cz : 1,553\n>> gitorious : 780\n>> github : 10,560\n>>\n>> It hosts far more than that if you include private projects, too. So,\n>> if we want to choose totally randomly, it's going to be at least a 5:1\n>> ratio between github projects and all other public hosting providers.\n>\n>\n> I think those numbers are pretty meaningless seeing as GitHub encourages\n> people to publish \"forks\" of other projects. Rails, for example, has about\n> 270 forks at the time of writing. If I scan the list of popular projects I\n> see fork counts like 129, 105, 78 and 78 (again). Are all the forks counted\n> in that figure of 10,560 that you count? How many \"real\" projects are hosted\n> there?\n\nActually, no - I was including forked projects in the repo.or.cz count\nand _not_ including forks in the github count. The actual apples to\napples count is :\n\nUnique Projects:\n repo.or.cz: 1553\n github: 10,560\n\nWith Forks:\n repo.or.cz : 1349\n github : 16,021\n\nAgain, that is only the free, public projects - there are far more if\nyou include the private projects as well. I understand that the\ncommercial side that is necessitated by that is uncomforting to many\npeople, but it is great for the adoption of Git. Otherwise, every\ncompany that wants to use Git professionally, including freelancers\nand consultants, would have to setup, manage and maintain their own\ngit servers. It should not be a precondition that in order to use Git\non a commercial project you either have to be a) a systems\nadministrator capable of setting up and running your own server (and\nkeeping it secure, etc), or b) part of an organization large enough to\nhave a department to take care of that for you. Sure, you and I can\ndo it, and it's easy for us, but that is not true of everyone.\n\n> I'd like to see the \"official\" Git homepage as distanced as possible from\n> GitHub. They've taken Git (free as in speech, free as in beer) and built a\n> closed-source commercial product on top of it -- curiously for something\n> which you can do for free yourself anyway -- and as far as I can tell from\n> observing this mailing list and watching the commits going into git.git,\n> haven't ever contributed _anything_ back to the community. At least within\n> the niche that is the Ruby/Rails community, GitHub has basically done a\n> hijack job and managed to become synonymous with Git, supplanting it, and\n> it's a trend that I wouldn't like to see continue.\n\nAgain, very few of us are excellent C programmers - I'm sure you\nwouldn't want any patches we have to offer there. We have spent\nconsiderable time and resources on things like gitcasts (which github\nsponsors for me), and on libraries and tools like ticgit (which is\nbeing included in the next Debian release) and Grit (a ruby/git\nlibrary that runs Gitorious, and probably most other web-based Git\nrepos), and will be contributing back improvements to ssh libraries\nthat allow for the sort of traffic they have to deal with. They have\nalso been looking to fund further open-source git related projects (in\ncase any of you are interested, btw) :\n\nhttp://github.com/blog/107-supercharged-ruby-git\n\n> Just my personal opinion, but GitHub doesn't provoke any warm fuzzy feelings\n> here. Quite the contrary. I actively dislike it.\n>\n> Cheers,\n> Wincent\n\nI'm sorry you don't like us, but we're really not that bad. If you're\nin the SF bay area sometime, send me a note and I'll take you out for\na beer and we can discuss what else we can do :)\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"85106","messageId":"7vsktweaxm.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726130757.GY32184@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T18:51:17Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T18:51:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Petr Baudis writes:\n\n> One Scott's concern that didn't occur to me was that a the time of\n> release, we could have broken links between the time tag is created and\n> tarballs are wrapped up. I *think* that in practice, this happens at the\n> same time, I wonder if Junio could confirm that.\n\nHeh, and you did not Cc: me ;-)?\n\nThere is a mirroring process involved between the public machines and the\nmachine I push the tag into and place the tarballs. I do not have control\nover that mirroring. But modulo that, the tarballs and RPMs are made\npublic before the tag and the tips of branches are pushed into the public\nrepository.\n\nThe release procedure goes like this (extend this as an addendum to\nDocumentation/howto/maintain-git.txt if somebody feels like it):\n\n * On the development machine outside k.org, create the tag, and prepare\n RPM for i386;\n\n * scp i386 RPM to a private staging area at k.org, and push the tag to a\n private building area also at k.org;\n\n * run the release procedure in the private building area at k.org, which:\n\n - builds x86_64 RPM and deposits it to the same private staging area\n i386 RPM were scp'ed to earlier;\n\n - builds the source tarball and documentation tarballs;\n\n - puts all of the above in /pub/software/scm/git/ to be mirrored out;\n\n - extracts html documentation tarball in /pub/software/scm/git/docs/v*\n to be mirrored out;\n\n http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/, the \"current\"\n documentation page, has links to these \"documentation for\n released versions\" and they point at these docs/v* areas.\n\n * push the tag and branch tips out to the public repository, so that it\n will be mirrored to /pub/scm/git/git.git/ (this updates the \"current\"\n documentation pages as a side effect);\n\n * send out the release announcement message to the list.\n\nThe 1.4.4.5 backport was an oddball. I do not think I did anything other\nthan simply pushing the tag out.\n"},{"id":"85108","messageId":"d411cc4a0807261213j9d7c68cw345aca2a87eabda1@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807262110140.26810@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T19:13:46Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T19:13:46Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Johannes Schindelin\n wrote:\n> Hi Scott,\n>\n> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>\n>> I'm sorry you don't like us, but we're really not that bad. If you're\n>> in the SF bay area sometime, send me a note and I'll take you out for a\n>> beer and we can discuss what else we can do :)\n>\n> If that applies to everybody having concerns, I would love to take you up\n> on your word for it. I will be in the bay area around 24th of October\n> this year.\n>\n> Ciao,\n> Dscho\n\nThat is open to anyone that has contributed a patch to git - I at\nleast owe you a beer. Let me know when you're around.\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"85109","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807262118420.26810@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807261213j9d7c68cw345aca2a87eabda1@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-26T19:20:11Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T19:20:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n\n> On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Johannes Schindelin\n> wrote:\n> >\n> > On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> >\n> >> I'm sorry you don't like us, but we're really not that bad. If \n> >> you're in the SF bay area sometime, send me a note and I'll take you \n> >> out for a beer and we can discuss what else we can do :)\n> >\n> > If that applies to everybody having concerns, I would love to take you \n> > up on your word for it. I will be in the bay area around 24th of \n> > October this year.\n> \n> That is open to anyone that has contributed a patch to git - I at least \n> owe you a beer.\n\nWelcome the masses:\n\n$ git shortlog -s | wc -l\n504\n\n> Let me know when you're around.\n\nAs I said, around 24th of October this year.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"85110","messageId":"d411cc4a0807261221l4004c99amb7725874d795eda5@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807262118420.26810@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Scott Chacon","fromEmail":"schacon@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T19:21:36Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T19:21:36Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"schacon@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b13a8a078e1dcf8588c4eea9554445d51ebed6c41b51f56f4d96738130b05c6?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Johannes Schindelin\n wrote:\n> Hi,\n>\n> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>\n>> On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Johannes Schindelin\n>> wrote:\n>> >\n>> > On Sat, 26 Jul 2008, Scott Chacon wrote:\n>> >\n>> >> I'm sorry you don't like us, but we're really not that bad. If\n>> >> you're in the SF bay area sometime, send me a note and I'll take you\n>> >> out for a beer and we can discuss what else we can do :)\n>> >\n>> > If that applies to everybody having concerns, I would love to take you\n>> > up on your word for it. I will be in the bay area around 24th of\n>> > October this year.\n>>\n>> That is open to anyone that has contributed a patch to git - I at least\n>> owe you a beer.\n>\n> Welcome the masses:\n>\n> $ git shortlog -s | wc -l\n> 504\n>\n>> Let me know when you're around.\n>\n> As I said, around 24th of October this year.\n>\n> Ciao,\n> Dscho\n>\n\nHeh. That would be a hell of a night... Nick Hengeveld said he's up\nfor it too, anytime.\n\nbtw, doener pointed out that I had the repo.or.cz numbers backward\nearlier - it should be 1500ish with forks, 1300ish without.\n\nScott\n"},{"id":"85112","messageId":"20080726201751.GU10151@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"d411cc4a0807252343n2b9ade68veaebb68664f0a3d7@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T20:17:51Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T20:17:51Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 11:43:55PM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> However, I have evangelized Git in person to literally thousands of\n> people, and tens of thousands more online. GitHub hosts over 10,000\n> public git projects completely for free, and has contributed a ton\n> back to the community, both in code and proselytization efforts.\n\nI certainly agree that GitHub has done a lot for spreading Git; the\nmention of code is interesting, though. There is Grist and the GitHooks;\nanything else? It's a pity Grist wasn't even announced at the mailing\nlist. :-(\n\n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\n"},{"id":"85114","messageId":"m34p6cv1gl.fsf@localhost.localdomain","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726201751.GU10151@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T20:24:05Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T20:24:05Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"Petr Baudis writes:\n\n> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 11:43:55PM -0700, Scott Chacon wrote:\n> > However, I have evangelized Git in person to literally thousands of\n> > people, and tens of thousands more online. GitHub hosts over 10,000\n> > public git projects completely for free, and has contributed a ton\n> > back to the community, both in code and proselytization efforts.\n> \n> I certainly agree that GitHub has done a lot for spreading Git; the\n> mention of code is interesting, though. There is Grist and the GitHooks;\n> anything else? It's a pity Grist wasn't even announced at the mailing\n> list. :-(\n\nAnd neither project was added to Git Wiki:\n http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/InterfacesFrontendsAndTools\n\nIt looks like GitHub-bers are a bit of splinter faction. Thank you\nScott Chacon for trying to change this...\n\nP.S. What about http://git-scm.org/ ?\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\nShadeHawk on #git\n"},{"id":"85115","messageId":"20080726203216.GV10151@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"m34p6cv1gl.fsf@localhost.localdomain","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-26T20:32:16Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T20:32:16Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 01:24:05PM -0700, Jakub Narebski wrote:\n> P.S. What about http://git-scm.org/ ?\n\nThis domain is kept by Jonas Fonseca and it seems to be used at\noccassions. It traditionally pointed to git.or.cz; thus I think it would\nmake sense for it to keep following git.or.cz unless/until we decide to\nrepoint that to git-scm.com. Jonas?\n\n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\n"},{"id":"85124","messageId":"7vbq0kckc9.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"F3D70DCD-E9A9-42C3-8870-ABB7EECF83CC@wincent.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-26T23:11:02Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-26T23:11:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Wincent Colaiuta writes:\n\n> I'd like to see the \"official\" Git homepage as distanced as possible \n> from GitHub. They've taken Git (free as in speech, free as in beer) \n> and built a closed-source commercial product on top of it -- curiously \n> for something which you can do for free yourself anyway ...\n\nI do not share that sentiment. It is perfectly fine for somebody to offer\nmanaged git repositories as a commercial _service_ to people who want to\njust _use_ git. It is what they could do themselves, but from the end\nuser's point of view, it's just \"outsourcing\" and is nothing unusual.\n\nIf GitHub folks improved the core part of the system while building their\nservice, we would want to get the changes back, and we will, _if_ they\ndistribute their software (i.e. they are not allowed to just distribute\nbinaries, if it links with git).\n\nAt the emotional level, if some people make the world a better place by\nbuilding new software around what I wrote, I would like to have the same\nkind of access to its source as I gave them access to my sources, whether\nthey distribute the end product as packaged software or they offer it as a\nservice to be used by others without ever distributing anything. But that\nis merely my _wish_; it is different from the terms git is distributed\nunder.\n\nI think you are going a bit too far to hate them for not opening up their\nsources they use to implement \"managed git repositories service\", which is\na _user_ of the core git, but most likely is not a derivative of git\nitself. IOW, it's not your code.\n"},{"id":"85148","messageId":"488C1362.4010608@sneakemail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vsktwfu5z.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Peter Valdemar Mørch (Lists)","fromEmail":"4ux6as402@sneakemail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-27T06:19:14Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T06:19:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"4ux6as402@sneakemail.com","avatar":null},"body":"As a contributer with a single commit I was happy to see myself appear \nshortly on the list (yeah!). Ok, so I realize it is vanity and a little \nsilly... :-)\n\nJunio C Hamano gitster-at-pobox.com |Lists| wrote:\n> I have a mild suspicion that sorting that list in alphabetical order may\n> actually make it much better. It all depends on the purpose of that list,\n> though.\n\nTo me it makes sense to sort the entire list according to commits. Its \nstill easy to find anybody with search, and I find it appropriate that I \nbe towards the end. The commit sorting encourages me to move up the \nlist! :-D\n\n> And for the \"giving credit\" purpose, I do not think truncating the list at\n> 5 commits or less threshold, as suggested earlier and already done, makes\n> much sense, either.\n\nAnd why truncate the list? I'd personally like to be back on the list \n(vanity! - but true), bandwidth is relatively cheap, and there is \nnothing below the list. I also think it makes the community look healty \nand encourages contribution to see how many others contribute.\n\nPeter\n-- \nPeter Valdemar Mørch\nhttp://www.morch.com\n"},{"id":"85164","messageId":"20080727113707.GC32184@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vsktwfu5z.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-27T11:37:07Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T11:37:07Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 10:10:32AM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> \"Scott Chacon\" writes:\n> \n> > On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 4:47 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> >> ...\n> >> I find a tabular list like this list easier to read if it were sorted like\n> >> this:\n> >>\n> >> A D G\n> >> B E H\n> >> C F\n> >> ...\n> >\n> > I fixed the things you mentioned here, except for the list ordering,\n> > only because I kinda think you big contributors should be at the top\n> > there,...\n> \n> If you are going to list 30 or so top contributors in 8 rows times 4\n> columns, because visually the columns are much more distinct than the\n> rows, it makes the result look more sorted. This is the same reasoning\n> hwo \"git help --all\" was fixed with 112d0ba (Make \"git help\" sort git\n> commands in columns, 2005-12-18).\n\nActually, this is strange for me: I would never think about reading git\nhelp --all by rows, and I would never think about reading the authors\nlist by columns! It's difficult for me to point out why, possibly\nbecause the authors list has less items per row and the items are longer\n(and multi-word), but that's just a speculation. Maybe cultural\nbackground (Japanese books are written in columns, right?) plays some\nrole too, I don't know.\n\n> The purpose of the list would most likely not to find somebody with high\n> activity to contact for help (you would use the top list that is sorted by\n> the commit count for that kind of thing). It would primarily be to give\n> credit to everybody, and perhaps so that people on the contributor list\n> can point at their own name and say \"I helped them\", or find somebody else\n> they happen to know in the list.\n> \n> When a contributor used to have 8 commits and then adds 2 commits, that\n> would move the name in the list by a dozen places or so with the current\n> set of contributors. It would be much easier to locate one's own name\n> among a huge list if the names are alphabetically sorted, not by commit\n> count. When more people start to contribute, your name does not move so\n> drastically. If you are Adam, you are likely to find yourself near the\n> beginning of the list, if you are Scott, you are likely to find yourself\n> near one fourth from the end of the list.\n\nI don't think locating is any issue; the find function of browser is\nvery easy to use nowadays. I guess the purpose of the list would be\nto show \"I helped them this much\" (i.e. \"I'm high on the list\"). I think\nthis would actually motivate contributors to move up in the ladder -\npeople are competitive; you might get wary about this kind of\nmotivation, but I believe that it is no bad thing, inherently. Heck, I\nadmit it does motivate even me a little, safely in the \"Primary Authors\"\nsection. :-) (These guys with their tools merged into git have unfair\nadvantage! You should add up also, uh, git-homepage, cogito and, um...\nrepo.git! *baby cry*)\n\n> And for the \"giving credit\" purpose, I do not think truncating the list at\n> 5 commits or less threshold, as suggested earlier and already done, makes\n> much sense, either.\n\nThe point here is that the list is awfully long and also can contain\na lot of duplicates or people with broken unicode, etc. - it gets hard\nto maintain, and it makes the about page too long. I would be of course\nfine with a tiny link at the bottom \"(show all contributors)\".\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"85165","messageId":"20080727122236.GY10151@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7v8wvok3f6.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-27T12:22:36Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T12:22:36Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 09:37:01AM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Petr Baudis writes:\n> \n> > I don't know if this should have any immediate effect on how we\n> > develop Git etc., but I think it is good to be aware of the fact that\n> > silently, huge amount of \"dark mass\" Git projects is accumulating and\n> > that Git is making headways in areas many of us were little aware of.\n> \n> The developer community and \"dark matter\" community are totally separate\n> entities that do not interact with each other very much, and they will go\n> their separate ways? I think it is inevitable for any project once it\n> becomes popular enough.\n\n I don't think this is inevitable. I think we are getting into this\nposition two few simple reasons:\n\n (i) The traffic on the main list is simply too high for regular users\nto keep up with. If we care to get more in touch with our users,\nthe solution might be to spread the word about the Git Users Google\nGroup more, and monitor it more actively.\n\n (ii) The tone on the mailing list seems frequently unnecessarily\nharsh. This was mentioned by some of the \"dark matter\" people (not Scott\nhimself) as the reason why didn't they announce their work on the\nmailing list; fear of being flamed. Especially at the beginning of\nsummer when I \"returned\" after quite a while of inactivity, I perceived\nthis rather unfriendly tone rather strongly as well (not at me\npersonally, but reading replies to other people's contributions), though\nI got kind of used to it quickly again. If we care to encourage postings\nby \"external\" developers to the mailing list, we should keep the usual\nstrength of our criticism, but try to make the tone more encouraging.\n\n> Where does this observation lead us in this \"Official\" git homepage\n> discussion? Perhaps the conclusion would be that there does not have to\n> be any _single_ official home? I dunno.\n\n That is not good idea; this would only split the community further,\n*and* create confusion as some people would be directed to homepage A,\nothers to homepage B, each would have its resources kept up-to-date\nin different manner, ...\n\n Also, we need someplace to link at from git itself:\n\n\tREADME:Many Git online resources are accessible from http://git.or.cz/\n\tgitweb/gitweb.perl:our $logo_url = \"http://git.or.cz/\";\n\nIn case of README, we could add another link easily, in case of gitweb,\nmuch less so.\n\n This ultimately comes down to what address would *you* write on\na piece of paper if someone walked to you on say, some conference\nand asked you \"I like Git, where can I learn more?\" Or you could start\nexplaining how Git does not have a single homepage and start writing\nmultiple URLs noting the differences. Would that make good impression?\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"85166","messageId":"20080727123511.GZ10151@machine.or.cz","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7v4p6dnv5k.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Petr Baudis","fromEmail":"pasky@suse.cz","sentAt":"2008-07-27T12:35:11Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T12:35:11Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pasky@ucw.cz","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/18439?v=4"},"body":"On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 09:09:43PM -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> For me personally, pages outside the wiki have never felt like \"the\n> official git homepage\", not because the contents you prepared were\n> inadequate, but because I did not see much community participation to help\n> enrich it.\n\nI agree; I think this might have been in part because the Wiki was so\neasy to use and change; I did receive some patches, but not any\noverwhelming amount.\n\n> So I wish the new site success, but the definition of success from my\n> point of view is not how many random visitors it will attract, but how\n> well the site makes the contributors (both to git software itself, and to\n> the site's contents) feel welcomed. Maybe in time it will become\n> successful enough by _my_ definition of success, and I may recommend\n> kernel.org folks to point at it from http://git.kernel.org/ (link with\n> text \"overview\") if/when that happens, and I may start mentioning them in\n> the \"Note\". We'll see.\n\nThe question is, however,is whether to make the _current_ overview link\ntarget simply alias at the new site _now_, though. :-) It seems to be\na waste to maintain two websites in parallel, as well as actively harmful\nand confusing for people interested in Git, as I tried to explain in\nmy other mail. That's why this subthread was born.\n\n> > The negatives section writeup is longer, but in fact I think the\n> > positives win here; I also have a bit of bad conscience about not giving\n> > git.or.cz the amount of time it would deserve...\n> \n> Let me thank you for maintaining not just git.or.cz/ but also repo.or.cz/\n> and the wiki.\n\nThanks, I appreciate this, though pretty much all of this sort of popped\nup simply because I had root access to a bored server. ;-) Especially\nwrt. the wiki, I think it's mainly Jakub Narebski who is keeping it\ntogether content-wise and keeps bugging me if it falls apart\ntechnically.\n\n-- \n\t\t\t\tPetr \"Pasky\" Baudis\nAs in certain cults it is possible to kill a process if you know\nits true name. -- Ken Thompson and Dennis M. Ritchie\n"},{"id":"85175","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807271744180.5526@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080727122236.GY10151@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-27T15:53:40Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T15:53:40Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Petr Baudis wrote:\n\n> (ii) The tone on the mailing list seems frequently unnecessarily\n> harsh.\n\nI heard this a lot of times now. I think it is not \"harsh\", but \"direct\". \nThere is nobody saying \"you are a bloody fool\". At least not in the first \nresponse, and certainly not without explaining why.\n\nSure, I, for one, am not overly polite. I do not start my mail with \"It \nis such a nice thing that you decided to provide a patch. I am certain \nthat you know C pretty well, but there _might_ be a few _tiny_ \nimprovements, would you indulge with me to let them lay out in front of \nyou?\"\n\nI do not do that because it goes without saying in Open Source that I \nwould not _bother_ to reply if I was not interested. And it Just Wastes \nMy Time.\n\nMaybe I should start my mails with \"Disclaimer: I only reply to you \nbecause I am interested in your patch.\"\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"85186","messageId":"7v3alv2n46.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080727113707.GC32184@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-27T18:33:29Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T18:33:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Petr Baudis writes:\n\n>> If you are going to list 30 or so top contributors in 8 rows times 4\n>> columns, because visually the columns are much more distinct than the\n>> rows, it makes the result look more sorted. This is the same reasoning\n>> hwo \"git help --all\" was fixed with 112d0ba (Make \"git help\" sort git\n>> commands in columns, 2005-12-18).\n>\n> Actually, this is strange for me: I would never think about reading git\n> help --all by rows, and I would never think about reading the authors\n> list by columns! It's difficult for me to point out why, possibly\n> because the authors list has less items per row and the items are longer\n> (and multi-word), but that's just a speculation. Maybe cultural\n> background (Japanese books are written in columns, right?) plays some\n> role too, I don't know.\n\nI do not think the default mode of \"ls\" output to tty (aka \"ls -C\") was\ninvented by/for Japanese people.\n\n>> And for the \"giving credit\" purpose, I do not think truncating the list at\n>> 5 commits or less threshold, as suggested earlier and already done, makes\n>> much sense, either.\n>\n> The point here is that the list is awfully long and also can contain\n> a lot of duplicates or people with broken unicode, etc. - it gets hard\n> to maintain, and it makes the about page too long. I would be of course\n> fine with a tiny link at the bottom \"(show all contributors)\".\n\nYour \"incentive to move up\" argument suggests otherwise. Even if it takes\nefforts to maintain on somebody's part, it is worth to be inclusive, *IF*\nthe purpose of that bottom list is to give credits to people.\n\nThe list on the site originally was not utilizing .mailmap and I asked\nScott to use it to merge duplicate entries, which he did. People whose\nnames are misspelled and/or split will now have incentive to tell Scott\nabout the problem so that they can clean up *their* own names, and Scott\ncan help maintaining .mailmap and feed the changes to me.\n\nThis is my ulterior motive behind this suggestion; I can outsource the\nmaintenance of .mailmap to people who care about it more than myself.\n"},{"id":"85197","messageId":"bd6139dc0807271312h2ddb8062xb91ba826bfc3d90d@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807271744180.5526@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Sverre Rabbelier","fromEmail":"alturin@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-27T20:12:49Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T20:12:49Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"alturin@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 17:53, Johannes Schindelin\n wrote:\n> Maybe I should start my mails with \"Disclaimer: I only reply to you\n> because I am interested in your patch.\"\n\nThat might actually be a good idea, maybe add it as your signature ;). *ducks*\n\n-- \nCheers,\n\nSverre Rabbelier\n"},{"id":"85205","messageId":"7vd4kzyoj1.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7v3alv2n46.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-27T22:01:54Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T22:01:54Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Junio C Hamano writes:\n\n> Petr Baudis writes:\n> ...\n>> The point here is that the list is awfully long and also can contain\n>> a lot of duplicates or people with broken unicode, etc. - it gets hard\n>> to maintain, and it makes the about page too long. I would be of course\n>> fine with a tiny link at the bottom \"(show all contributors)\".\n>\n> Your \"incentive to move up\" argument suggests otherwise. Even if it takes\n> efforts to maintain on somebody's part, it is worth to be inclusive, *IF*\n> the purpose of that bottom list is to give credits to people.\n>\n> The list on the site originally was not utilizing .mailmap and I asked\n> Scott to use it to merge duplicate entries, which he did. People whose\n> names are misspelled and/or split will now have incentive to tell Scott\n> about the problem so that they can clean up *their* own names, and Scott\n> can help maintaining .mailmap and feed the changes to me.\n>\n> This is my ulterior motive behind this suggestion; I can outsource the\n> maintenance of .mailmap to people who care about it more than myself.\n\nBy the way, earlier Scott gave as explanation why he and others around\nGitHub, people who are not very visible on this list, are not interacting\nwith us very much --- because they are not \"C coders\".\n\nBut maintenance of .mailmap (and Documentation/ area, too, of course) is a\ngood example of how involvement from non \"C coders\" would be a helpful and\nhealthy thing to have in the development process, and why we do not want\nto fracture the user community in two.\n"},{"id":"85207","messageId":"46a038f90807271619l69c085a7o58f50b7d64b7222d@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vd4kzyoj1.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Martin Langhoff","fromEmail":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-27T23:19:34Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-27T23:19:34Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1e3f311b6c4c15836501901ca58f8c0b0667246488084ba524d8bc9867e22fd9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> By the way, earlier Scott gave as explanation why he and others around\n> GitHub, people who are not very visible on this list, are not interacting\n> with us very much --- because they are not \"C coders\".\n\nWell, I'm not a C coder either ;-) -- plenty of the large contributors\ndo their work in Perl Python and shell. Granted, I am not very active\nlately, but that's because I'm busy on non-git-related (but\ngit-using!) projects.\n\nAnd the choice of language has nothing to do with helping people\naround. If they care about getting recommendations from list regulars,\nanyway. Maintaining a great user-facing website might be their way of\nengaging and interacting with us.\n\ncheers,\n\n\n\nmartin\n-- \n martin.langhoff@gmail.com\n martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect\n - ask interesting questions\n - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first\n - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff\n"},{"id":"85231","messageId":"530345950807272011o7c92fdaaw3116cc257dcbab7a@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"46a038f90807271619l69c085a7o58f50b7d64b7222d@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Tom Werner","fromEmail":"pubsub@rubyisawesome.com","sentAt":"2008-07-28T03:11:01Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-28T03:11:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pubsub@rubyisawesome.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Martin Langhoff\n wrote:\n> And the choice of language has nothing to do with helping people\n> around. If they care about getting recommendations from list regulars,\n> anyway. Maintaining a great user-facing website might be their way of\n> engaging and interacting with us.\n\nAs cofounder of GitHub I'd like to jump in and say a few words. I'm a\nhuge fan of git. HUGE. But that should already be obvious. We started\nGitHub because we saw that git was a tremendously useful tool but was\nmissing a way to easily and flexibly share your public and private\ncode with other developers. That simple idea grew into what we now\nlike to call \"Social Code Hosting.\"\n\nI find it a bit confusing that some here seem to have a strong dislike\nfor GitHub. It's true that we haven't been active on the developer\nlist or in the #git channel on freenode, but we are constantly in\n#github and have answered a *great* many questions from developers\nthat are new to git. At the same time, like Martin finally guesses, we\nbelieve that our contribution to the git community is GitHub itself.\nWe provide free git hosting for over 16,000 open source repositories!\nAs mentioned earlier in the thread, the Ruby-Git binding that Scott\nand I wrote has been open source from the beginning. While we did not\nannounce it here, we have publicized it in the Ruby circle (where,\npresumably, people would most likely find it useful) and in fact there\nare currently 28 forks and 138 watchers of the project. We've also\nreleased albino, facebox, and github-services via GitHub. You can see\nall the open source stuff we use at GitHub here:\nhttp://github.com/github.\n\n\nPerhaps it is the commercial aspect of GitHub that offends. The only\nreason that GitHub is as featured and polished as it is, is because we\ncan make money from it. We hope to soon be working on GitHub full\ntime. There is no way this could have been possible if we did not\noffer paid private repositories. A part of being a commercial\noperation is making the main product closed source. One might argue\nthat we could still have GitHub as a service while making the code\nopen source, but the truth of the matter is that this is not in the\nbest interest of our future plans for the company.\n\nI don't like the thought of being at odds with the git developer\ncommunity at all, and let me be the first to apologize if we've\noffended anyone. It certainly is not our intention. Our goal with\nGitHub is to help make git even better by offering a service that\nhelps people streamline their git workflows and discover projects that\nmay interest them. We're trying to give back to the community how we\nknow best: by offering kickass git hosting and associated\ncollaboration tools.\n\nHaving had to implement a git-daemon replacement that fit our needs, I\nhave some ideas on how to improve git-daemon and fetch-pack with\nregards to error messages and logging. I'll be sure to bring those up\non this list. One thing you should probably understand about us is\nthat we're all about getting things done. Which is one reason we\nweren't bothering everyone in here when we started GitHub. We like to\ndesign from first principles, see how good we can do, and then get\nfeedback from the users. If you're a GitHub user (or have a reason why\nyou are *not* a GitHub user), we'd love to hear your feedback on ways\nwe can improve!\n\nTom Preston-Werner\ngithub.com/mojombo\n"},{"id":"85269","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807281201350.2725@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"530345950807272011o7c92fdaaw3116cc257dcbab7a@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-07-28T10:50:19Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-28T10:50:19Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Tom Werner wrote:\n\n> I find it a bit confusing that some here seem to have a strong dislike \n> for GitHub. It's true that we haven't been active on the developer list \n> or in the #git channel on freenode, but we are constantly in #github and \n> have answered a *great* many questions from developers that are new to \n> git.\n\nSpeaking for myself, I will probably direct some users from #git to \n#github, then.\n\nThe deeper reasoning: if you really do help by that channel, by all means \nI want to provide you with the opportunity to do so.\n\n> As mentioned earlier in the thread, the Ruby-Git binding that Scott and \n> I wrote has been open source from the beginning. While we did not \n> announce it here, we have publicized it in the Ruby circle (where, \n> presumably, people would most likely find it useful) and in fact there \n> are currently 28 forks and 138 watchers of the project.\n\nI find that limiting to the Ruby circle particularly unconvincing. Sure, \nthey might care much more than me. Much more, to be sure.\n\nBut when _I_ -- being around the Git list for a long time -- do not _know_ \nabout something like a pretty well-working Ruby-Git binding, instead only \nknowing a pretty stale effort on repo.or.cz by \"corecode\", then I think \ncommunication channels are suboptimal. Way supoptimal.\n\nBecause at times _I_ am asked if there is some Git interface for Ruby, and \nit feels awkward that I am pretty familiar with Git's internals and \ncommunity, yet I do not know about such an _important_ piece of software \nbeing available!\n\n> Perhaps it is the commercial aspect of GitHub that offends.\n\nIn my opinion you can be as commercial as you want. Nevertheless, I would \nlike to see some direct benefit for me, too, for obvious reasons. That \ndoes not need to be money; like Junio said, watching out for user \nquestions on the Git list would already be very useful, in two respects:\n\n- the core developers have more time for hacking on Git itself (which \n would be good both for the developers as well as for you),\n\n- if your advices can be enhanced (such as my gripe that \"git show\" is not \n even so much as mentioned, in spite of being _the_ porcelain to inspect \n objects in Git's object database, not cat-file, whose only role in \n tutorials can be to shoo new users away) it will be early, which again \n is a win-win situation for both core developers as well as for you, and\n\n- just as in the past, I fully expect the main thrust of the major changes \n in Git to be driven by user experience (just think of Git 1.5.0), and by \n driving users away (and indeed, by driving yourself away, a bunch of \n power-users), you would make that much more unlikely to happen in the \n future. So, having you closer to the Git mailing list and #git would\n again be a win-win situation.\n\n> Having had to implement a git-daemon replacement that fit our needs, I\n> have some ideas on how to improve git-daemon and fetch-pack with\n> regards to error messages and logging.\n\nI might mention here that I think you are committing one of the biggest \nsins in Open Source: you do not reap the full power of the community.\n\nI am sure, if you would have mentioned your needs first, possibly followed \nby an early version of a patch, git-daemon would already be enhanced to \nyour liking, and these enhancements would be available to everyone \n(including me, for example). But maybe that being available to everyone \nis not in the best interest of a commercial outfit?\n\n> We like to design from first principles, see how good we can do, and \n> then get feedback from the users.\n\nMaybe this is so contrary to Open Source that many are uncomfortable with \nit.\n\nAlso note that one of the major gripe with you making money off of Git \ncould be the following: we have over 500 contributors, and most of them -- \nfirst and foremost of all, the two major contributors, Junio and Shawn -- \ncannot make money from Git. Envy is wrong, but it is real.\n\nDo not get me wrong, I do not want to defend that behavior, but I think it \nis a reality that you will have to cope with.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"85313","messageId":"530345950807281112w45215c16k49ffe240d41c6a9e@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807281201350.2725@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Tom Werner","fromEmail":"pubsub@rubyisawesome.com","sentAt":"2008-07-28T18:12:49Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-28T18:12:49Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pubsub@rubyisawesome.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:50 AM, Johannes Schindelin\n wrote:\n> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Tom Werner wrote:\n>> I find it a bit confusing that some here seem to have a strong dislike\n>> for GitHub. It's true that we haven't been active on the developer list\n>> or in the #git channel on freenode, but we are constantly in #github and\n>> have answered a *great* many questions from developers that are new to\n>> git.\n>\n> Speaking for myself, I will probably direct some users from #git to\n> #github, then.\n>\n> The deeper reasoning: if you really do help by that channel, by all means\n> I want to provide you with the opportunity to do so.\n\nBy all means! The users might be a bit confused about why you're\nsending them to #github, but we're happy to help them out if you don't\ncare to. We actually employ a support person to man the channel and\nhelp out where he can.\n\n>> Perhaps it is the commercial aspect of GitHub that offends.\n>\n> In my opinion you can be as commercial as you want. Nevertheless, I would\n> like to see some direct benefit for me, too, for obvious reasons. That\n> does not need to be money; like Junio said, watching out for user\n> questions on the Git list would already be very useful, in two respects:\n>\n> - the core developers have more time for hacking on Git itself (which\n> would be good both for the developers as well as for you),\n\nUsing this same logic, it follows that we GitHub developers would be\nbetter suited to hacking on GitHub (which would be good for the git\ncommunity). There are only so many hours in the day. I've had many a\nGitHub user tell me that the GitHub interface and functionality helped\nthem finally understand git and feel comfortable switching to it from\nSVN or CVS. It seems we can help bigger populations of git users by\nmaking the site as clear and easy to use as possible, so that is what\nwe choose to do.\n\n> - if your advices can be enhanced (such as my gripe that \"git show\" is not\n> even so much as mentioned, in spite of being _the_ porcelain to inspect\n> objects in Git's object database, not cat-file, whose only role in\n> tutorials can be to shoo new users away) it will be early, which again\n> is a win-win situation for both core developers as well as for you, and\n\nCan you clarify what you are referring to here? I'm not sure I understand.\n\n> - just as in the past, I fully expect the main thrust of the major changes\n> in Git to be driven by user experience (just think of Git 1.5.0), and by\n> driving users away (and indeed, by driving yourself away, a bunch of\n> power-users), you would make that much more unlikely to happen in the\n> future. So, having you closer to the Git mailing list and #git would\n> again be a win-win situation.\n\nI totally agree with the direction that 1.5 has taken git. You guys\nare doing an awesome job with user experience. As I come across\nusability problems I'll be sure to bring them up here in the future.\n\n>> Having had to implement a git-daemon replacement that fit our needs, I\n>> have some ideas on how to improve git-daemon and fetch-pack with\n>> regards to error messages and logging.\n>\n> I might mention here that I think you are committing one of the biggest\n> sins in Open Source: you do not reap the full power of the community.\n>\n> I am sure, if you would have mentioned your needs first, possibly followed\n> by an early version of a patch, git-daemon would already be enhanced to\n> your liking, and these enhancements would be available to everyone\n> (including me, for example). But maybe that being available to everyone\n> is not in the best interest of a commercial outfit?\n\nThe problem is that I'm only a casual C coder. It takes me a while to\nfigure out what's going on in the git source. We needed a way to serve\npublic git repositories from a hashed directory structure (e.g.\n/a/b/c/user/repo.git) and we needed it fast. In a few days worth of\ncoding Erlang, I was able to meet that need (and also add logging and\nbetter error messages returned to the client). If I had, as you\nsuggest, created a badly written patch and asked for help on the list,\nI'd probably still be trying to solve the problem. It's dubious that\nanyone other than us currently needs to satisfy the hashed directory\nrequirement, and as such I would not assume or expect that anyone\nwould be motivated to spend a bunch of time helping a C amateur\nsatisfy that need. In the end I was responsible for making it work,\nand I did that the best and most efficient way I knew how.\n\nLike I said before, I'm happy to share my suggestions for better error\nmessages and logging behavior, but I'm probably not going to be much\nhelp with providing patches.\n\n>> We like to design from first principles, see how good we can do, and\n>> then get feedback from the users.\n>\n> Maybe this is so contrary to Open Source that many are uncomfortable with\n> it.\n>\n> Also note that one of the major gripe with you making money off of Git\n> could be the following: we have over 500 contributors, and most of them --\n> first and foremost of all, the two major contributors, Junio and Shawn --\n> cannot make money from Git. Envy is wrong, but it is real.\n\nThis is clearly false and does not do Junio or Shawn justice. It's not\nhard to imagine that these two (or any of the other contributors)\ncould make money doing training for git at companies that have adopted\nit, or as consultants to firms that use git in novel ways, or as\nauthors of git books. Scott Chacon gets paid right now to work on\ntools that use git as an underlying file system. In fact, by helping\nbring corporate interest to git, GitHub is paving the way for more and\nmore people to make money from git if they so choose. I wouldn't be\nsurprised if, down the road, Junio could be paid to hack on git full\ntime via corporate sponsorship. The continuing advancement of git is\nof interest to a great many people. Some of which would gladly pay for\nit.\n\nTom Preston-Werner\ngithub.com/mojombo\n"},{"id":"85344","messageId":"7vk5f5ptwu.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0807281201350.2725@eeepc-johanness","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-07-28T21:42:41Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-28T21:42:41Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Johannes Schindelin writes:\n\n> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Tom Werner wrote:\n>\n>> I find it a bit confusing that some here seem to have a strong dislike \n>> for GitHub. It's true that we haven't been active on the developer list \n>> or in the #git channel on freenode, but we are constantly in #github and \n>> have answered a *great* many questions from developers that are new to \n>> git.\n>\n> Speaking for myself, I will probably direct some users from #git to \n> #github, then.\n\nI saw more than several times that people asked github specific questions\non #git; when they were lucky, there was somebody who knew github and they\ngot necessary help. Otherwise the answer was \"eh, sorry, that's a closed\nservice and we cannot help diagnosing the problem you are having\". It\nwould have been the right way to help them to refer to the #github support\nchannel.\n\nIf a company can fund somebody to help new users with git problems on #git\nwhile helping people with github problems on #github, that would be a good\ngesture towards the git community, I'd suppose.\n\n> Also note that one of the major gripe with you making money off of Git \n> could be the following: we have over 500 contributors, and most of them -- \n> first and foremost of all, the two major contributors, Junio and Shawn -- \n> cannot make money from Git. Envy is wrong, but it is real.\n\nI do not talk for Shawn, but I think that comment misses the mark by a\nlarge margin, at least for me.\n\nI haven't been in this for money. The original motivation of my\ninvolvement was to help sending Linus back to the kernel as quickly as\npossible, but now I primarily do this for fun. Doing it for money would\nrisk removing the fun factor.\n\nWhat I personally lack right now is time and mental bandwidth.\n\nActive contributers of all kinds, ranging from \"C coders\", \"scripters\", to\n\"Documentation people\" and \"dropped patch naggers\", have been helping me\nquite a lot. Corporate sponsors that can pay back in money but not in\npatches may be able to find other ways to help us, but I do not offhand\nknow what's the most effective way for them to do so if they wanted to.\n"},{"id":"85349","messageId":"46a038f90807281534g41e8c097n370bc289b4ae0268@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vk5f5ptwu.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Martin Langhoff","fromEmail":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-07-28T22:34:54Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-28T22:34:54Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1e3f311b6c4c15836501901ca58f8c0b0667246488084ba524d8bc9867e22fd9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Active contributers of all kinds, ranging from \"C coders\", \"scripters\", to\n> \"Documentation people\" and \"dropped patch naggers\", have been helping me\n> quite a lot. Corporate sponsors that can pay back in money but not in\n> patches may be able to find other ways to help us, but I do not offhand\n> know what's the most effective way for them to do so if they wanted to.\n\nFWIW - not much probably - anything that pushes towards\n\"gui-completeness\" is a good step.\n\nWe have fantastic gui tools that complement the awesome cli UI, and we\nhave some complete-ish GUIs, but the git-cheetah and Eclipse tracks\nare lacking. Work on those is needed - whether money can help I do not\nknow. However, not many people work on polishing smooth UIs for love\nand fun.\n\ncheers,\n\n\n\nmartin\n-- \n martin.langhoff@gmail.com\n martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect\n - ask interesting questions\n - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first\n - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff\n"},{"id":"85353","messageId":"A46A65A0-1B36-4C2A-8E1B-6E7313286AAF@ai.rug.nl","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vk5f5ptwu.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Pieter de Bie","fromEmail":"pdebie@ai.rug.nl","sentAt":"2008-07-28T22:39:22Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-28T22:39:22Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"pdebie@ai.rug.nl","avatar":null},"body":"\nOn 28 jul 2008, at 23:42, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n> Johannes Schindelin writes:\n>\n>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Tom Werner wrote:\n>>\n>>> I find it a bit confusing that some here seem to have a strong \n>>> dislike\n>>> for GitHub. It's true that we haven't been active on the developer \n>>> list\n>>> or in the #git channel on freenode, but we are constantly in \n>>> #github and\n>>> have answered a *great* many questions from developers that are \n>>> new to\n>>> git.\n>>\n>> Speaking for myself, I will probably direct some users from #git to\n>> #github, then.\n>\n> I saw more than several times that people asked github specific \n> questions\n> on #git; when they were lucky, there was somebody who knew github \n> and they\n> got necessary help. Otherwise the answer was \"eh, sorry, that's a \n> closed\n> service and we cannot help diagnosing the problem you are having\". It\n> would have been the right way to help them to refer to the #github \n> support\n> channel.\n\nFor what it's worth, I regularly redirect people from #git to #github, \nso at\nleast they aren't always left in the dark ;)\n\n- Pieter\n"},{"id":"85401","messageId":"20080729051553.GB11947@spearce.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"7vk5f5ptwu.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Shawn O. Pearce","fromEmail":"spearce@spearce.org","sentAt":"2008-07-29T05:15:53Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-29T05:15:53Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"spearce@spearce.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/34844?v=4"},"body":"Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> Johannes Schindelin writes:\n> > Also note that one of the major gripe with you making money off of Git \n> > could be the following: we have over 500 contributors, and most of them -- \n> > first and foremost of all, the two major contributors, Junio and Shawn -- \n> > cannot make money from Git. Envy is wrong, but it is real.\n> \n> I do not talk for Shawn, but I think that comment misses the mark by a\n> large margin, at least for me.\n\nI'm glad you guys think so highly of my contributions, but I am\nonly a small cog in the big machine known as \"git\". I just happen\nto like very-fine grained commits for any changes, which skews my\ncommit count upwards a bit. There are _many_ contributors in that\n\"Primary Authors\" list on git-scm.com who deserve attention too. :)\n \n> I haven't been in this for money. The original motivation of my\n> involvement was to help sending Linus back to the kernel as quickly as\n> possible, but now I primarily do this for fun. Doing it for money would\n> risk removing the fun factor.\n> \n> What I personally lack right now is time and mental bandwidth.\n\nWell, here you could have spoken for me I think. I do git because\nI find it fun, rewarding, and challenging. Though these days it\nhas been a little bit more work and a little bit less fun-challenge\nas I am plowing through code for egit, but its a labor of love.\n\nMy contributions to Git are also about giving back, in return for\nthe benefit I have gained over the years from using Linux, and the\nthousands of other open source packages that make it all work.\nI'm not big on kernel hacking (though I did try it for about 6\nmonths) so this is one way I can put a few pennys back in the open\nsource take-a-penny/leave-a-penny penny jar.\n\nMore recently I may be in a position where my new employer might\nbe able to make some contribution to the community through part of\nmy time. I shall see if it winds up detracting from the fun aspect\nof it for me. Personally I tend to get so focused on something that\nI have a very hard time moving away from it, and just want to focus\non that one thing and do it well. Doing it at day-job may make\nthat easier, and reduce stress on me, in turn making it more fun.\n\n> [...] Corporate sponsors that can pay back in money but not in\n> patches may be able to find other ways to help us, but I do not offhand\n> know what's the most effective way for them to do so if they wanted to.\n\nI don't know how much kernel.org needs support, but we rely heavily\non kernel.org for our main distribution site of git. Its a drop\nin the bucket compared to the Linux kernel activity itself, but I\nimagine that the right sort of Linux-friendly (and Git-friendly)\ncorporate sponsor could really help kernel.org out. Of course only\nso much help is really useful, and I have no idea what kernel.org's\nfinancial (and staff time) situtation is like, so I'll shut up now.\n\nPasky's repo.or.cz is another huge area that the community relies\nupon. Fortunately Pasky has been able to offer its services freely,\nbut in the future it may reach a point where corporate support\nfor adminstration assitance, duct-tape development, bandwidth or\nhardware, may be extremely beneficial.\n\n-- \nShawn.\n"},{"id":"85794","messageId":"489206E4.2030901@freescale.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"530345950807281112w45215c16k49ffe240d41c6a9e@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Jon Loeliger","fromEmail":"jdl@freescale.com","sentAt":"2008-07-31T18:39:32Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-31T18:39:32Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jdl@jdl.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/75ce9a10b151acd2c28ec4ab2136dba7b2ff1634530bd04b155981a749d08a64?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"Tom Werner wrote:\n>\n> The problem is that I'm only a casual C coder. It takes me a while to\n> figure out what's going on in the git source. We needed a way to serve\n> public git repositories from a hashed directory structure (e.g.\n> /a/b/c/user/repo.git) and we needed it fast. \n\nI'm not exactly sure what you mean by \"hashed directory structure\",\nbut I suspect that your goal is some form of virtualized hosting\nthat allows for directory names to be dynamically constructed with\na component that appears to be the user name.\n\nWouldn't the --interpolated-path ability of git-daemon either\ndirectly or with minor modifications directly support that?\n\njdl\n"},{"id":"85812","messageId":"2F33BB4E-C726-4405-8185-2B573ED7A3BA@sb.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"489206E4.2030901@freescale.com","subject":"Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Kevin Ballard","fromEmail":"kevin@sb.org","sentAt":"2008-07-31T20:19:49Z","receivedAt":"2008-07-31T20:19:49Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"kevin@sb.org","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/714?v=4"},"body":"On Jul 31, 2008, at 11:39 AM, Jon Loeliger wrote:\n\n> Tom Werner wrote:\n>>\n>> The problem is that I'm only a casual C coder. It takes me a while to\n>> figure out what's going on in the git source. We needed a way to \n>> serve\n>> public git repositories from a hashed directory structure (e.g.\n>> /a/b/c/user/repo.git) and we needed it fast.\n>\n> I'm not exactly sure what you mean by \"hashed directory structure\",\n> but I suspect that your goal is some form of virtualized hosting\n> that allows for directory names to be dynamically constructed with\n> a component that appears to be the user name.\n>\n> Wouldn't the --interpolated-path ability of git-daemon either\n> directly or with minor modifications directly support that?\n\nTom, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of this is that, \nwith GFS, they were running into the problem of too many dirents in \none directory, thus causing lots of stability problems (GFS has a far \nlower limit than other filesystems in this regard). So the GitHub guys \nhad to switch to a directory sharding structure (similar to how the \ngit objects db uses the first 2 characters of the hash as the dir \nname) to split this up and keep the numbers manageable. However, they \nstill had to support the old git://github.com/user/project.git paths.\n\n-Kevin Ballard\n\n-- \nKevin Ballard\nhttp://kevin.sb.org\nkevin@sb.org\nhttp://www.tildesoft.com\n"},{"id":"86082","messageId":"2c6b72b30808030750w383ff4e9y8f9dbbc3b254722f@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"20080726203216.GV10151@machine.or.cz","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Jonas Fonseca","fromEmail":"jonas.fonseca@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-08-03T14:50:39Z","receivedAt":"2008-08-03T14:50:39Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jonas.fonseca@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/9b7fa23cce50269e5d164312b6ac5ae818a180f837b38f28f3bdf689dd7f96cd?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 10:32 PM, Petr Baudis wrote:\n> On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 01:24:05PM -0700, Jakub Narebski wrote:\n>> P.S. What about http://git-scm.org/ ?\n>\n> This domain is kept by Jonas Fonseca and it seems to be used at\n> occassions. It traditionally pointed to git.or.cz; thus I think it would\n> make sense for it to keep following git.or.cz unless/until we decide to\n> repoint that to git-scm.com. Jonas?\n\nI claimed git-scm.org after the last survey since a few people\nmentioned that they found the git.or.cz domain name a bit obscure. I\nam aware that the my current lack of involvement in git development\n(which is mostly limited to documentation improvements) and the\nresulting possible lack of trust from the community has limited its\nuse. However, I hope that it can serve some purpose in the future\nwhether it will be as an alias or not. I have am open for suggestions,\nbut for now I trust you and will follow your advice in this matter.\n\n-- \nJonas Fonseca\n"},{"id":"86112","messageId":"7v4p6192tz.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"14676","inReplyTo":"2c6b72b30808030750w383ff4e9y8f9dbbc3b254722f@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: Official Git Homepage change? Re: git-scm.com","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-08-03T22:00:08Z","receivedAt":"2008-08-03T22:00:08Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"\"Jonas Fonseca\" writes:\n\n> .... I\n> am aware that the my current lack of involvement in git development\n> (which is mostly limited to documentation improvements) and the\n> resulting possible lack of trust from the community has limited its\n> use....\n\nHuh? Lack of trust? Don't be ridiculous to forget \"tig\".\n"}]}