{"thread":{"id":"13027","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","startedAt":"2008-04-08T21:51:59Z","lastAt":"2008-04-11T18:00:39Z","messageCount":11,"participants":["Dill","Miklos Vajna","Martin Langhoff","Junio C Hamano","Jakub Narebski","Wincent Colaiuta","John Goerzen","Johannes Schindelin"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"73882","messageId":"60646ee10804081451i4e6aa23ek44280e5d367d8814@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Dill","fromEmail":"sarpulhu@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-04-08T21:51:59Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T21:51:59Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"sarpulhu@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":">I might be interested in this, but why the web forum format? Why not\n>just set up a git-users mailing list instead? Archive it on the web if\n>you want, but a mailing list is more suited to this kind of thing.. or\n>better yet a newsgroup. I usually read my mailing lists through gmane's\n>NNTP server anyway (like this one).\n\nI think some people just like the web forum format. It allows topics\nto be easily sorted and you can even go back and edit posts to update\nold posts. It just seems easier to use for some. The forum would allow\nusers to easily communicate and I think a lot of users not only look\nat mailing lists but also seek out forums for help. Dylan.\n"},{"id":"73886","messageId":"20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"60646ee10804081451i4e6aa23ek44280e5d367d8814@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Miklos Vajna","fromEmail":"vmiklos@frugalware.org","sentAt":"2008-04-08T22:25:01Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T22:25:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"vmiklos@frugalware.org","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/401c1cbbb3a5d13e650c691a2c71d6fd0b80df1a01bc74d9f1972675dd58f2bd?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote:\n> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek\n> out forums for help.\n\ni never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on\nthis mailing list?\n\nyes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but\nhow one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a\nmail client? :)\n"},{"id":"73887","messageId":"60646ee10804081532s2c444458ieb5aa36b79c42339@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Dill","fromEmail":"sarpulhu@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-04-08T22:32:28Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T22:32:28Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"sarpulhu@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"I just think it's handy for variety. Doesn't hurt to have multiple\nsources of info. Yes someone could search this mailing list but a\nforum is useful as well. Just different.\nohh and gitforum.net should work now\n> > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek\n> > out forums for help.\n>\n> i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on\n> this mailing list?\n>\n> yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but\n> how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a\n> mail client? :)\n>\n"},{"id":"73888","messageId":"46a038f90804081536h7a19803apb401ed60593d9802@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Martin Langhoff","fromEmail":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-04-08T22:36:17Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T22:36:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1e3f311b6c4c15836501901ca58f8c0b0667246488084ba524d8bc9867e22fd9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna wrote:\n> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote:\n> > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek\n> > out forums for help.\n>\n> i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on\n> this mailing list?\n>\n> yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but\n> how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a\n> mail client? :)\n\nSpecially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views,\nincluding ads ;-)\n\nOne thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't\nwant to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's\nmake sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting\nuser/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times.\n\nMake sure you read up on earlier discussions on a \"git-users\" list -\nmost of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a\nforum.\n\ncheers,\n\n\n\nm\n-- \n martin.langhoff@gmail.com\n martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect\n - ask interesting questions\n - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first\n - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff\n"},{"id":"73889","messageId":"60646ee10804081545k6031578dxbae4c644fb7d2833@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"46a038f90804081536h7a19803apb401ed60593d9802@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Dill","fromEmail":"sarpulhu@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-04-08T22:45:35Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T22:45:35Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"sarpulhu@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Martin Langhoff\n wrote:\n>\n> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna wrote:\n> > On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote:\n> > > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek\n> > > out forums for help.\n> >\n> > i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on\n> > this mailing list?\n> >\n> > yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but\n> > how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a\n> > mail client? :)\n>\n> Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views,\n> including ads ;-)\n>\n> One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't\n> want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's\n> make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting\n> user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times.\n>\n> Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a \"git-users\" list -\n> most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a\n> forum.\n>\n> cheers,\n\nI have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to\ncreate communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will\nprobably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites\nwill sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.\nDylan.\n"},{"id":"73891","messageId":"46a038f90804081551u44d7b4cald5a00e74ee479dc1@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"60646ee10804081545k6031578dxbae4c644fb7d2833@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Martin Langhoff","fromEmail":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-04-08T22:51:22Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T22:51:22Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1e3f311b6c4c15836501901ca58f8c0b0667246488084ba524d8bc9867e22fd9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Dill wrote:\n> I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to\n> create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will\n> probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites\n> will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.\n\nDo read the older discussions. Separating users from developers does\nnot work well. Successful communities have mixed lists -- perhaps\nsplit by topic (linux-usb for example) but not by \"participant type\".\nUsers should be guided towards this list --\n\ncheers,\n\n\n\nm\n-- \n martin.langhoff@gmail.com\n martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect\n - ask interesting questions\n - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first\n - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff\n"},{"id":"73893","messageId":"7vabk4klfw.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"20080408222501.GV11574@genesis.frugalware.org","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-04-08T22:53:39Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T22:53:39Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Miklos Vajna writes:\n\n> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote:\n>> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek\n>> out forums for help.\n>\n> i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on\n> this mailing list?\n>\n> yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but\n> how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a\n> mail client? :)\n\nThat's Ok. Not everybody has to subscribe to this mailing list to use\ngit. Choice is fine.\n\nI just have a suspicion that this community the \"forum\" announcement talks\nabout will be a completely different community from what is known as the\n\"Git community\", whose definition is roughly \"people who appear on this\nmailing list and/or people who help others on #git at freenode\". The\npeople in \"Git community\" are generally helpful bunch of people when new\npeople have troubles, and any \"Git community\" will want to have people\nlike them --- otherwise the place will end up to be full of questions,\nconfusion, and wrong answers without much guidance and enlightenment.\n\nBut I suspect the people from existing \"Git community\" will not bother\nvisiting the new \"forum\" only to help out more new people. There must be\nsomething else that is compelling enough for them to visit there, for\nexample, \"to hunt for ideas on what's lacking\" (which, by the way, is the\nreason I sometimes sit in #git channel, even though I am not an IRC\nperson). But we already have the mailing list and #git for that, so\nthat's not what this new communication channel can offer us. They need to\ncome up with something new to entice us.\n\nIn short, \"forum\" people need to build their own set of helpful experts if\nthey want to have \"an excellent online reference ... to get help\". It\ntakes efforts to build a new community from scratch. I am afraid that\nthey will be pretty much on their own.\n\nBut I have been wrong before. Let's see how well the new \"forum\"\nflourish (no, I do not forsee me visiting there).\n"},{"id":"73895","messageId":"m34pact0ru.fsf@localhost.localdomain","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"60646ee10804081545k6031578dxbae4c644fb7d2833@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-04-08T22:55:23Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-08T22:55:23Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"Dill writes:\n\n> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Martin Langhoff\n> wrote:\n>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna wrote:\n>>> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill wrote:\n>>>>\n>>>> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek\n>>>> out forums for help.\n>>>\n>>> i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on\n>>> this mailing list?\n>>>\n>>> yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but\n>>> how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a\n>>> mail client? :)\n>>\n>> Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views,\n>> including ads ;-)\n>>\n>> One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't\n>> want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's\n>> make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting\n>> user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times.\n>>\n>> Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a \"git-users\" list -\n>> most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a\n>> forum.\n> \n> I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to\n> create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will\n> probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites\n> will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.\n\nFirst, Git is and I think would be mainly developers tool. Developers\nshould know how to use mailing list, either using mail client\n(subscribing or not) or news reader (via GMane NNTP interface).\n\nSecond, there are many ways to read git mailing list (various mailing\nlist archives, NNTP interface, IIRC also RSS interface).\n\nThird, we have #git channel on FreeNode for quick response (if\npossible), we have Git Homepage (and maintainer welcomes patches; the\ngit homepage itself is maintained using git), we have Git Wiki where\none can find and put information (contribute!)...\n\nDo we really need web forum?\n\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\nShadeHawk on #git\n"},{"id":"73944","messageId":"4457E50D-4D8A-49CB-BCA9-84EC087EDF9E@wincent.com","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"60646ee10804081532s2c444458ieb5aa36b79c42339@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Wincent Colaiuta","fromEmail":"win@wincent.com","sentAt":"2008-04-09T10:19:02Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-09T10:19:02Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"greg@hurrell.net","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/7074?v=4"},"body":"El 9/4/2008, a las 0:32, Dill escribió:\n\n> I just think it's handy for variety. Doesn't hurt to have multiple\n> sources of info. Yes someone could search this mailing list but a\n> forum is useful as well. Just different.\n> ohh and gitforum.net should work now\n\nJust out of interest, who'll be receiving the income (if any) from the \nmassive Google AdWords blocks at the top of every single page? (I'm \nguessing the providers of the free forum hosting.)\n\nWincent\n"},{"id":"74121","messageId":"slrnfvuqle.dqv.jgoerzen@katherina.lan.complete.org","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"46a038f90804081551u44d7b4cald5a00e74ee479dc1@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"John Goerzen","fromEmail":"jgoerzen@complete.org","sentAt":"2008-04-11T13:42:06Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-11T13:42:06Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jgoerzen@complete.org","avatar":null},"body":"On 2008-04-08, Martin Langhoff wrote:\n> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Dill wrote:\n>> I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to\n>> create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will\n>> probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites\n>> will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.\n>\n> Do read the older discussions. Separating users from developers does\n> not work well. Successful communities have mixed lists -- perhaps\n> split by topic (linux-usb for example) but not by \"participant type\".\n> Users should be guided towards this list --\n\nI don't think this is right.\n\nDebian has debian-user, debian-devel, and a host of other lists. Some\nare mixed (debian-kde), some aren't (debian-devel). \n\ndebian-user is extremely high volume. In fact, its volume normally\ndwarfs that of debian-devel. As a developer, it would be virtually\nimpossible to participate in development discussions without having to\nspend an inordinate amount of time each day filtering out all the\ndiscussions about KDE icons or whatnot. \n\nNot that these are *bad* discussions, or that developers never\nsubscribe to -user, but there are some developers (such as myself)\nwith limited time to devote to the project, and I feel my time is\nbetter spent on development than on filtering through 1000 messages\neach day that I'm not really interested in.\n\nMoreover, as a *user* of some projects, I appreciate the distinction\nas well. I do not want to be a pest to the developers that are\ndonating their time to improve the project I benefit from when my\nquestion could be perfectly well addressed by other users more\nexperienced than I.\n\nAs an example, I subscribe to the MythTV user list but not the\ndevelopment list. There are all sorts of discussions there --\neverything from what TVs are best in different situations to\ndiscussions over cable company encryption and setup of the MythTV web\ninterface. I don't read most of them, but find some interesting. At\nthe same time, I am not really interested in the latest SVN commits\nfor MythTV. I upgrade my box maybe once a year and don't really care\nabout development internals, so as a user, this separation benefits me\ntoo.\n\nI don't see a -user list as a bad thing for a community the size of\nGit.\n\nThink about it this way: once the Windows stuff for Git gets mature\n(to the TortoiseGit level), there are going to be a lot of people\nusing Git that really *can't* operate a mail client because the only\n\"mail client\" at their disposal is Outlook.\n\n-- John\n"},{"id":"74130","messageId":"alpine.DEB.1.00.0804111655000.31025@eeepc-johanness","threadId":"13027","inReplyTo":"slrnfvuqle.dqv.jgoerzen@katherina.lan.complete.org","subject":"Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-04-11T18:00:39Z","receivedAt":"2008-04-11T18:00:39Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Fri, 11 Apr 2008, John Goerzen wrote:\n\n> Think about it this way: once the Windows stuff for Git gets mature (to \n> the TortoiseGit level), there are going to be a lot of people using Git \n> that really *can't* operate a mail client because the only \"mail client\" \n> at their disposal is Outlook.\n\nThat's a scary thought. I will stop all my work on git-cheetah.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"}]}