{"thread":{"id":"12437","subject":"The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","startedAt":"2008-03-02T23:30:40Z","lastAt":"2008-03-06T11:40:47Z","messageCount":23,"participants":["Johannes Schindelin","Jakub Narebski","Tilman Schmidt","Junio C Hamano","Brandon Casey","Martin Langhoff","Jim Raden","Jay Soffian","Paul Franz"],"isPatch":false,"patchVersion":null,"patchTotal":null},"messages":[{"id":"70711","messageId":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803022329560.22527@racer.site","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":null,"subject":"The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-03-02T23:30:40Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-02T23:30:40Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"\nGood morning git land!\n\nThis dark and quiet Sunday night is as good an occasion as any to \noffer to you the 8th airing of the msysGit Herald, the \nnot-quite-biweekly news letter to keep you informed about msysGit, the \neffort to bring one of the most powerful Source Code Management \nsystems to the poor souls stuck with Windows. \n\nThese are the covered topics:\n\n\tWe have a working 'git svn'\n\n\tInterview with Christian Stimming\n\n\tGPL only needs to be acknowledged\n\n\tThe installer was on diet\n\n\tcore.autocrlf = true\n\n\tUpdate to a new ssh, problems with pulling msysGit\n\n\tEntering Babel: \"rebase\"\n\n\tgit-cheetah is now a submodule\n\n\n\nMaybe I should strike the \"not quite biweekly\"? But then, it _is_ not \nquite biweekly ;-) \n\nAnyway, here it goes, the newest issue of the Herald, subtitle \"Yeah, \nwe have a working git svn!\" \n\n\nWe have a working 'git svn'\n===========================\n\nSome time ago, we started work on compiling Perl ourselves, in order \nto be able to install the Subversion modules which are necessary to \nrun 'git svn'. In the last issue of the Herald, I wrote something \nabout our long and rocky road until we had a working 'git svn' (See \nthe story \"We managed to get git-svn to run!\"). \n\nWe played it safe, though, and had some alpha versions of a Git \ninstaller including 'git svn', and with good reason: Some testers came \nback and said that it would not work with https repositories, and that \nauthentication was not supported. We included the necessary libraries \nand modules, cut a new Git installer, and the tests show that while it \nis slow, it works! \n\nWhile working on git-svn, we realized that there are a few scripts in \nmsysGit that cannot possibly work (yet), so we excluded them from the \nGit installer. These scripts are: archimport, cvsexportcommit, \ncvsimport, cvsserver, filter-branch, instaweb, send-email, and shell. \n\n\nInterview with Christian Stimming\n=================================\n\nChristian put in a big effort to get 'git svn' to work when I got \nstuck. He did such a great job, that I decided to interview him for \nthe Herald, since I could not afford to buy him a house by way of \nsaying thanks. So here it goes: \n\n> 1) How did you get involved with Git? \n\nSome fellow developer in another Open Source project mentioned it and \nwas enthusiastic about this new way of working. As my main reason for \nbeing involved in Open Source is learning new things, this got me \ncurious. \n\n> 2) What were the reasons that you started working on Git? \n\nIn one project I had to work with a dead lame CVS server, where each \ncontact to the repository took way way too long. Discovering that git \nwould import all of the history and give me access to each and \neverything I wanted to know from the history brought back the fun into \nthe project. From that moment on, I was hooked. \n\n> 3) What do you like most in Git? \n\nSpeed. It's so fast, it's marvellous. This doesn't quite hold for the \nWindows version, but it is still faster than any other alternatives \nthat I know of. And the GUI tools gitk and git-gui did a fantastic job \nof a low entry barrier - it's now really easy to start branching and \nmerging a lot. \n\n> 4) What do you hate most in Git? \n\nThe command line options. Sometimes it seems to me all the really cool \nactions in git can only be invoked by a mysterious collection of weird \noption switches which 1. I've never heard of, 2. are hidden deep down \nin long manual pages which make it impossible to distinguish important \noptions from the unimportant ones, and 3. change very frequently in \nnew versions. For example, \"git rebase -i\" is a nice feature, but it \nis simply a different action than a one-shot \"git rebase\". Hence, if \nit is supposed to be really used, it should rather be a command such \nas \"git interactive-rebase\". The GUI tools go a long way to hide those \nmysterious option collections, but some of the daily workflow steps \nare still unavailable in the GUI. Rebase being the most prominent, I \nguess. \n\n> 5) What was the most surprising moment when working with Git? \n\nSeeing it up and running on Windows just as well as on Linux. \n\n> 6) What was the most frustrating moment when working with Git? \n\nFinding that \"git pull\" will create many more merge commits than I \nwanted, and that there doesn't seem to be an easy way of running \"git \nfetch; git rebase\" in one command. All in all there hasn't been much \nfrustration potential in git... I guess this is a good thing. \n\n> 7) In what environment do you work? \n\nDesktop machines with Linux or Windows, always using code from a \ncentral SVN repository. Really: I'm switching back and forth between \nLinux or Windows, and seeing git available on Windows just as well \nmakes this fun again. \n\n> 8) What other hobbies do you have? \n\nProgramming. Oh, and programming. Well, there's also family: A \nwonderful wife and two cute daughters. \n\n> 9) What is your favourite movie? \n\nSchulze gets the Blues. \n\n> 10) What are your visions for Git? (I.e. where do you want it to \ngo?) \n\nGit will empower the user! (Well, here the user is more the developer, \nbut this doesn't rhyme as good.) The GUI tools will make it possible \nfor everyone to use git instead of any of the previously popular \ncentral VCSs, but now with the decentralized features on top. This is \nstep one in introducing a true decentralized model into the normal \ncompany workflows. Step two is to start using push and pull between \nthe decentralized repositories, so that developers use the tools to \nrepresent their actual workflow. Step three: World domination! \n\n\nGPL only needs to be acknowledged\n=================================\n\nIt is funny how licenses can make people speak up who normally would \nkeep quiet, and so we got a complaint that we forced the users of our \nGit installer to accept the GNU Public License. \n\nPersonally, I think it is not nice to demand changes, especially \nlicense changes, or changes in the visibility of the license, when you \nget the software for free. \n\nAlso, I try to stay on the very safe side of legal issues, in order to \navoid contact with lawyers, especially ones where they demand that I \ncross their hands with silver. So I was quite unwilling to change \nthat. \n\nHowever, none less than our benevolent dictator, Linus Torvalds spoke \nup, pointing out that it is not really a _choice_. You need not accept \nthe GPL, it is sufficient that you acknowledge that this is the only \nlicense regulating your rights with regard to Git. \n\nNow, that was very reasonable, so we changed it. \n\nPersonal sidenote: I would do quite a few things for people whose work \nI benefit from every day; it is that fundamental idea of fairness (or \ntit for tat) encoded in the GPL which makes me extremely comfortable \nwith that license, and I think that I am not the only one. \n\n\nThe installer was on diet\n=========================\n\nThe installer had a diet on Doctor's orders, but no worry, it is not \nbulimic. As stated previously, now even 'git svn' was added. How was \nthat possible? \n\nPretty easy. We dragged around a lot of garbage in our installer. Some \ntime ago, it was janitized, and lost a few megabytes already, but this \ntime, even more effort was put into removing unneeded parts. \n\nMainly inside the Perl library, files were removed. Since the Git \ninstaller is not meant to be any development environment -- we do not \neven ship gcc -- shipping header files and linkable libraries does not \nmake sense. \n\nNeither is documentation for Perl needed, since nobody is supposed to \ndevelop the Perl scripts of Git without the development environment: \nthat is what 'msysGit' is for. \n\nSo away went the documentation! \n\nA few files have been removed from Tcl, vim, some unneeded Perl \nmodules, and cvs, too, so we actually ended up with an 8.0 megabyte \ninstaller _with_ 'git svn', whereas the previous installer weighed in \nwith 8.8 megabyte. \n\n\ncore.autocrlf = true\n====================\n\nWe finally addressed issue 21. For Windows projects, it seems to be \nthe safest bet to just set core.autocrlf = true. We did that in the \n/etc/gitconfig we ship with msysGit. \n\nThere is a subtle problem here, and we will see how to solve it: Git's \nsource code itself is not supposed to be checked out with \ncore.autocrlf = true. \n\nFor new cloners, this should be easy to address (even if it has not \nbeen done yet): Git is checked out by /etc/profile, and we can set the \nconfig variable there, too. \n\nHowever, existing users who pull (and do not read the msysGit mailing \nlist regularly enough to have heard about the problem) will have to \nupdate their setup manually. \n\n\nUpdate to a new ssh, problems with pulling msysGit\n==================================================\n\nThere have been reports about hanging ssh processes, and for a long \ntime, we had no idea how to solve it. \n\nUntil it was reported that an update to a newer MSys helps. So we \nupdated some of MSys' libraries, and ssh.exe. \n\nLittle did we know what this would involve: one peculiarity of the \nWindows platform that has never been addressed properly by Git is that \nyou cannot overwrite files that are in use. The symptoms in Git are \nthat you check out, or merge, new revisions, but the files-in-use are \nnot updated, and marked as dirty afterwards. \n\n... such as the MSys libraries, when you are using the bash. While \npulling msysGit, for example. \n\nNow, a workaround is to actually install Git from our installer, then \ncd to the msysGit root, and perform the pull. That is a bit involved, \nthough. \n\nA few ideas arose, such as writing a script, or using git-gui. But a \nscript does not seem feasible, as it would not be able to close the \nbash, perform the pull, and then start the bash again. \n\nAlso, \"git merge\" is still a shell script, so even git-gui (which runs \nvia Tcl/Tk, and thusly does not use the MSys libraries) cannot perform \nthe merge -- except when you call the git-gui from the Git installer. \n\nWe'll see if we can find an elegant way to tackle that problem. \n\n\nEntering Babel: \"rebase\"\n========================\n\nWhat is a \"rebase\"? For Git users, it means replaying commits on top \nof a new branch point. \n\nNot so in Windows Speak: Windows' .dll files have fixed address ranges \nassigned to them, and when they overlap, problems occur. The tool \n\"rebase\" is meant to help there, by assigining non-overlapping ranges \nto existing .dll files. \n\nPeter Harris -- about whose work you will likely read more in the next \nHeralds -- was so kind to diagnose and fix that problem, by running \n\"rebase\" himself. \n\nUnfortunately, this tool is a closed source tool. But happily, Peter \ncould point me to an Open Source implementation of it, and I succeeded \nin compiling it. \n\nAs a consequence, we have now a script to fetch, compile and install \nthat Open Source \"rebase\" tool in our \"full\" branch, for the joy and \nenlightenement of interested developers. \n\n\ngit-cheetah is now a submodule\n==============================\n\nWe readded the necessary COM infrastructure, and added git-cheetah \n(the hopefully-soon lookalike of TortoiseCVS for Git) as a submodule \nin /src/git-cheetah. \n\nIt is not checked out by default, so you will have to update the \nsubmodule as usual: \n\n$ cd / \n\n$ git submodule init src/git-cheetah \n\n$ git submodule update src/git-cheetah \n\n$ cd src/git-cheetah \n\n$ make \n\nSpeaking of git-cheetah: mailing list member Kirill is working pretty \nhard to get a context sensitive menu in place, and on separating the \nplatform dependent parts out into their own source files. \n\nSo my dream about a git-cheetah for Dolphin, Konqueror and Finder has \nactually a chance to become reality soon! \n"},{"id":"70717","messageId":"m34pbok54h.fsf@localhost.localdomain","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803022329560.22527@racer.site","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-03T00:44:58Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T00:44:58Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"\nJohannes Schindelin writes:\n\n> > 4) What do you hate most in Git? \n> \n> The command line options. Sometimes it seems to me all the really cool \n> actions in git can only be invoked by a mysterious collection of weird \n> option switches which 1. I've never heard of, 2. are hidden deep down \n> in long manual pages which make it impossible to distinguish important \n> options from the unimportant ones, and 3. change very frequently in \n> new versions. For example, \"git rebase -i\" is a nice feature, but it \n> is simply a different action than a one-shot \"git rebase\". Hence, if \n> it is supposed to be really used, it should rather be a command such \n> as \"git interactive-rebase\". The GUI tools go a long way to hide those \n> mysterious option collections, but some of the daily workflow steps \n> are still unavailable in the GUI. Rebase being the most prominent, I \n> guess. \n\nIt is not that much different. The basis operation is the same;\nI don't think that \"rebase -i\" differs from \"rebase\" more than\n\"add -i\" differs from \"add\".\n\n> > 6) What was the most frustrating moment when working with Git? \n> \n> Finding that \"git pull\" will create many more merge commits than I \n> wanted, and that there doesn't seem to be an easy way of running \"git \n> fetch; git rebase\" in one command.\n\n\"git pull --rebase\", but it is quite new feature.\n\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\nShadeHawk on #git\n"},{"id":"70718","messageId":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803030052450.22527@racer.site","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"m34pbok54h.fsf@localhost.localdomain","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-03-03T00:54:28Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T00:54:28Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Jakub Narebski wrote:\n\n> Johannes Schindelin writes:\n> \n> > > 4) What do you hate most in Git? \n> > \n> > The command line options. Sometimes it seems to me all the really cool \n> > actions in git can only be invoked by a mysterious collection of weird \n> > option switches which 1. I've never heard of, 2. are hidden deep down \n> > in long manual pages which make it impossible to distinguish important \n> > options from the unimportant ones, and 3. change very frequently in \n> > new versions. For example, \"git rebase -i\" is a nice feature, but it \n> > is simply a different action than a one-shot \"git rebase\". Hence, if \n> > it is supposed to be really used, it should rather be a command such \n> > as \"git interactive-rebase\". The GUI tools go a long way to hide those \n> > mysterious option collections, but some of the daily workflow steps \n> > are still unavailable in the GUI. Rebase being the most prominent, I \n> > guess.\n> \n> It is not that much different. The basis operation is the same;\n> I don't think that \"rebase -i\" differs from \"rebase\" more than\n> \"add -i\" differs from \"add\".\n\nWell, first of all, this was a personal view.\n\nAnd then, I think he _has_ a point. Our interfaces are not bad, but they \nare not really obvious, either.\n\nIf I only were a bit more gifted in interface design...\n\n> > > 6) What was the most frustrating moment when working with Git? \n> > \n> > Finding that \"git pull\" will create many more merge commits than I \n> > wanted, and that there doesn't seem to be an easy way of running \"git \n> > fetch; git rebase\" in one command.\n> \n> \"git pull --rebase\", but it is quite new feature.\n\nYes, it is. And it is not that easy for our users to find out about what \nnew features got into Git, since there are _so many_ new features.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n\n"},{"id":"70719","messageId":"200803030210.02223.jnareb@gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803030052450.22527@racer.site","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Jakub Narebski","fromEmail":"jnareb@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-03T01:10:01Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T01:10:01Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jnareb@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/2706?v=4"},"body":"\nJohannes Schindelin wrote:\n> On Sun, 2 Mar 2008, Jakub Narebski wrote:\n>> Johannes Schindelin writes:\n\n>>>> 6) What was the most frustrating moment when working with Git? \n>>> \n>>> Finding that \"git pull\" will create many more merge commits than I \n>>> wanted, and that there doesn't seem to be an easy way of running \"git \n>>> fetch; git rebase\" in one command.\n>> \n>> \"git pull --rebase\", but it is quite new feature.\n> \n> Yes, it is. And it is not that easy for our users to find out about what \n> new features got into Git, since there are _so many_ new features.\n\nThere are always RelNotes ;-))))\n\nFor me the sign how incredibly fast the git development is is the fact\nthat git version from a year ago is considered \"ancient\".\n\n-- \nJakub Narebski\nPoland\n"},{"id":"70775","messageId":"47CBE85B.6060702@imap.cc","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"200803030210.02223.jnareb@gmail.com","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Tilman Schmidt","fromEmail":"tilman@imap.cc","sentAt":"2008-03-03T12:00:27Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T12:00:27Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tilman@imap.cc","avatar":null},"body":"\nJakub Narebski schrieb:\n>>> \"git pull --rebase\", but it is quite new feature.\n>> Yes, it is. And it is not that easy for our users to find out about what \n>> new features got into Git, since there are _so many_ new features.\n> \n> There are always RelNotes ;-))))\n> \n> For me the sign how incredibly fast the git development is is the fact\n> that git version from a year ago is considered \"ancient\".\n\nYes, and that is in itself a problem for people like me who just want to\nuse git to get some work done. The time I spend installing new git\nversions, reading RelNotes and sorting through a rather high-volume\nmailing list goes off the time I can spare for working on the Linux\ndriver I maintain. :-(\n\nTilman\n"},{"id":"70776","messageId":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803031205170.22527@racer.site","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"47CBE85B.6060702@imap.cc","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-03-03T12:05:46Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T12:05:46Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n\n> Jakub Narebski schrieb:\n> >>> \"git pull --rebase\", but it is quite new feature.\n> >> Yes, it is. And it is not that easy for our users to find out about what \n> >> new features got into Git, since there are _so many_ new features.\n> > \n> > There are always RelNotes ;-))))\n> > \n> > For me the sign how incredibly fast the git development is is the fact\n> > that git version from a year ago is considered \"ancient\".\n> \n> Yes, and that is in itself a problem for people like me who just want to \n> use git to get some work done. The time I spend installing new git \n> versions, reading RelNotes and sorting through a rather high-volume \n> mailing list goes off the time I can spare for working on the Linux \n> driver I maintain. :-(\n\nWell, you do not _have_ to upgrade, if you are comfortable with what you \nhave...\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n\n"},{"id":"70808","messageId":"7vablfiv42.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"47CBE85B.6060702@imap.cc","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-03-03T17:18:53Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T17:18:53Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Tilman Schmidt writes:\n\n> Jakub Narebski schrieb:\n>>>> \"git pull --rebase\", but it is quite new feature.\n>>> Yes, it is. And it is not that easy for our users to find out about what \n>>> new features got into Git, since there are _so many_ new features.\n>> \n>> There are always RelNotes ;-))))\n>> \n>> For me the sign how incredibly fast the git development is is the fact\n>> that git version from a year ago is considered \"ancient\".\n>\n> Yes, and that is in itself a problem for people like me who just want to\n> use git to get some work done. The time I spend installing new git\n> versions, reading RelNotes and sorting through a rather high-volume\n> mailing list goes off the time I can spare for working on the Linux\n> driver I maintain. :-(\n\nYeah, we can stop fixing issues and enhancing features. Would that help?\n\n"},{"id":"70816","messageId":"47CC419E.7030704@imap.cc","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803031205170.22527@racer.site","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Tilman Schmidt","fromEmail":"tilman@imap.cc","sentAt":"2008-03-03T18:21:18Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T18:21:18Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tilman@imap.cc","avatar":null},"body":"Am 03.03.2008 13:05 schrieb Johannes Schindelin:\n> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n> \n>> Jakub Narebski schrieb:\n[...]\n>>> For me the sign how incredibly fast the git development is is the fact\n>>> that git version from a year ago is considered \"ancient\".\n>> Yes, and that is in itself a problem for people like me who just want to \n>> use git to get some work done. The time I spend installing new git \n>> versions, reading RelNotes and sorting through a rather high-volume \n>> mailing list goes off the time I can spare for working on the Linux \n>> driver I maintain. :-(\n> \n> Well, you do not _have_ to upgrade, if you are comfortable with what you \n> have...\n\nTrue as far as it goes, and for appropriate values of \"what I have\".\nNeither do I _have_ to subscribe to the mailing list, or, for that\nmatter, to read the release notes of a new version I install.\n\nBut git is not particularly easy to learn on my own, so I end up\nasking for help. (Arguably this qualifies as \"not comfortable with\nwhat I have.\") And then \"ancient version\" translates all too easily\ninto \"you should upgrade to a newer one\".\n\n-- \nTilman Schmidt E-Mail: tilman@imap.cc\nBonn, Germany\nDiese Nachricht besteht zu 100% aus wiederverwerteten Bits.\nUngeöffnet mindestens haltbar bis: (siehe Rückseite)\n\n"},{"id":"70819","messageId":"47CC432B.8060502@imap.cc","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"7vablfiv42.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Tilman Schmidt","fromEmail":"tilman@imap.cc","sentAt":"2008-03-03T18:27:55Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T18:27:55Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tilman@imap.cc","avatar":null},"body":"Am 03.03.2008 18:18 schrieb Junio C Hamano:\n> Tilman Schmidt writes:\n> \n>> Yes, and that is in itself a problem for people like me who just want to\n>> use git to get some work done. The time I spend installing new git\n>> versions, reading RelNotes and sorting through a rather high-volume\n>> mailing list goes off the time I can spare for working on the Linux\n>> driver I maintain. :-(\n> \n> Yeah, we can stop fixing issues and enhancing features. Would that help?\n\nOh dear, I didn't want to offend anyone. Of course fixing issues\nand enhancing features is a Good Thing(TM).\n\n-- \nTilman Schmidt E-Mail: tilman@imap.cc\nBonn, Germany\nDiese Nachricht besteht zu 100% aus wiederverwerteten Bits.\nUngeöffnet mindestens haltbar bis: (siehe Rückseite)\n\n"},{"id":"70824","messageId":"47CC47EE.9060004@nrlssc.navy.mil","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"47CC419E.7030704@imap.cc","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Brandon Casey","fromEmail":"casey@nrlssc.navy.mil","sentAt":"2008-03-03T18:48:14Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T18:48:14Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"drafnel@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/921167?v=4"},"body":"Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n> Am 03.03.2008 13:05 schrieb Johannes Schindelin:\n>> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008, Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n>>\n>>> Jakub Narebski schrieb:\n> [...]\n>>>> For me the sign how incredibly fast the git development is is the fact\n>>>> that git version from a year ago is considered \"ancient\".\n>>> Yes, and that is in itself a problem for people like me who just want to \n>>> use git to get some work done. The time I spend installing new git \n>>> versions, reading RelNotes and sorting through a rather high-volume \n>>> mailing list goes off the time I can spare for working on the Linux \n>>> driver I maintain. :-(\n>> Well, you do not _have_ to upgrade, if you are comfortable with what you \n>> have...\n> \n> True as far as it goes, and for appropriate values of \"what I have\".\n> Neither do I _have_ to subscribe to the mailing list, or, for that\n> matter, to read the release notes of a new version I install.\n> \n> But git is not particularly easy to learn on my own, so I end up\n> asking for help. (Arguably this qualifies as \"not comfortable with\n> what I have.\") And then \"ancient version\" translates all too easily\n> into \"you should upgrade to a newer one\".\n\nI think the assumption made was that you were already getting some work\ndone with the version of git that you had.\n\nIf you do not yet have a comfortable grasp of git usage I would suggest\nthe following steps:\n\n 1) Grab \"a\" version of git (preferably latest stable version)\n\t-If you need to compile it, read the \"INSTALL\" file.\n 2) Read intro/tutorials\n\t-tutorial.txt\n\t-everyday.txt\n\t-user-manual.txt (more in-depth)\n\tThese three are mentioned in the git man page.\n 3) Start using it\n\t-refer to man pages to answer questions as you\n\t encounter issues\n\t-ask the mailing list when man pages or other docs\n\t are unable to answer your questions\n 4) End of story\n\nUpgrading, reading RelNotes, using new features, and reading the high-volume\nmailing list are not required, so it is wrong to suggest that they are barriers\nto entry for using git.\n\n-brandon\n\n"},{"id":"70846","messageId":"7v1w6rh1ru.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"47CC432B.8060502@imap.cc","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-03-03T22:37:57Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T22:37:57Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"Tilman Schmidt writes:\n\n> Am 03.03.2008 18:18 schrieb Junio C Hamano:\n>> Tilman Schmidt writes:\n>> \n>>> Yes, and that is in itself a problem for people like me who just want to\n>>> use git to get some work done. The time I spend installing new git\n>>> versions, reading RelNotes and sorting through a rather high-volume\n>>> mailing list goes off the time I can spare for working on the Linux\n>>> driver I maintain. :-(\n>> \n>> Yeah, we can stop fixing issues and enhancing features. Would that help?\n>\n> Oh dear, I didn't want to offend anyone. Of course fixing issues\n> and enhancing features is a Good Thing(TM).\n\nHeh, no offence taken, and sorry I forgot the obligatory smiley ;-)\n\nBut if you s/stop/slow down/ what I said, it may start to resemble a more\nserious question.\n"},{"id":"70850","messageId":"46a038f90803031458t2b404212t10f6e9ae710dc408@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"7v1w6rh1ru.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Martin Langhoff","fromEmail":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-03T22:58:22Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-03T22:58:22Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"martin.langhoff@gmail.com","avatar":"https://gravatar.com/avatar/1e3f311b6c4c15836501901ca58f8c0b0667246488084ba524d8bc9867e22fd9?d=mp&s=160"},"body":"On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n> But if you s/stop/slow down/ what I said, it may start to resemble a more\n> serious question.\n\nGiven that git dev has such a frantic pace... would it make sense to\ngive way to some \"version inflation\"?\n\nThis would give end users a more clear sense of how much things have\nchanged -- a 1.4.x to 1.5.x doesn't seem like much. But a 1.5 to 2.0\nwith a \"new features summary\" will grab a bit of attention, get its\nslashdot article, and be a more frank communication of the work that's\nhappened, and what the user can expect.\n\nIn other words, the 'linux versioning' scheme sucks when dealing with\npeople who aren't sub'd to the mailing list. Yes, from git v0.99 to\ntoday we haven't broken anything too significant, but from an end user\nPOV, several of the smaller changes carry enough incompatibility that\nv1.4.x and v1.5.x are not actually compatible (all the remote heads\nhandling changes, for example).\n\nSo say rock on, but label the next feature release 2.0 or at least 1.6\nand declare it is \"mostly compatible, but you'll do well in re-cloning\nyour projects to keep things simple\" -- in practice, I've had to do\nthat anyway on the 1.3->1.4->1.5 transitions.\n\ncheers,\n\n\nmartin\n"},{"id":"71143","messageId":"47CF28DA.9030209@imap.cc","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"47CC47EE.9060004@nrlssc.navy.mil","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Tilman Schmidt","fromEmail":"tilman@imap.cc","sentAt":"2008-03-05T23:12:26Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-05T23:12:26Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tilman@imap.cc","avatar":null},"body":"Am 03.03.2008 19:48 schrieb Brandon Casey:\n> I think the assumption made was that you were already getting some work\n> done with the version of git that you had.\n\nTrue.\n\n> If you do not yet have a comfortable grasp of git usage\n\nTrue, too.\n\n> I would suggest the following steps:\n> \n> 1) Grab \"a\" version of git (preferably latest stable version)\n> \t-If you need to compile it, read the \"INSTALL\" file.\n> 2) Read intro/tutorials\n> \t-tutorial.txt\n> \t-everyday.txt\n> \t-user-manual.txt (more in-depth)\n> \tThese three are mentioned in the git man page.\n> 3) Start using it\n> \t-refer to man pages to answer questions as you\n> \t encounter issues\n> \t-ask the mailing list when man pages or other docs\n> \t are unable to answer your questions\n\nGot as far as that. In fact, I'm talking about one specific aspect\nof that last substep. (let's call it 3.2)\n\n> 4) End of story\n\nI can't see that yet.\n\n> Upgrading, reading RelNotes, using new features, and reading the high-volume\n> mailing list are not required, so it is wrong to suggest that they are barriers\n> to entry for using git.\n\nI never meant to suggest that. They only are barriers for proceeding\nto step 3.2 and onwards to step 4.\n\nHope that clears it up a bit.\n\n-- \nTilman Schmidt E-Mail: tilman@imap.cc\nBonn, Germany\nDiese Nachricht besteht zu 100% aus wiederverwerteten Bits.\nUngeöffnet mindestens haltbar bis: (siehe Rückseite)\n\n"},{"id":"71148","messageId":"47CF2F61.5060208@imap.cc","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"46a038f90803031458t2b404212t10f6e9ae710dc408@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Tilman Schmidt","fromEmail":"tilman@imap.cc","sentAt":"2008-03-05T23:40:17Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-05T23:40:17Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"tilman@imap.cc","avatar":null},"body":"Am 03.03.2008 23:58 schrieb Martin Langhoff:\n> On Tue, Mar 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n>> But if you s/stop/slow down/ what I said, it may start to resemble a more\n>> serious question.\n\nWell, I seriously wouldn't want you to slow down fixing bugs. :-)\nEnhancing features is a slightly different matter, because that\ntends to impress upon insiders a feeling of \"how could we ever have\ndone without that?\" and onwards from there to \"how can anybody\nseriously without that?\" which then easily creates the impression\nthat the answer to every other question from simple users like me\nis \"install the newest version, it has a nifty feature that solves\nyour problem better than anything already present in the version\nyou have!\"\n\n> Given that git dev has such a frantic pace... would it make sense to\n> give way to some \"version inflation\"?\n> \n> This would give end users a more clear sense of how much things have\n> changed -- a 1.4.x to 1.5.x doesn't seem like much. But a 1.5 to 2.0\n> with a \"new features summary\" will grab a bit of attention, get its\n> slashdot article, and be a more frank communication of the work that's\n> happened, and what the user can expect.\n\nYou've got a point there.\n\nBut I'd like to suggest something else still: seeing that my git\nmailing list folder has already grown to 363 mails again, of which\nprobably only a small fraction will concern me as a user - would\nit be possible to have separate mailing lists for usage topics and\nfor discussions of ongoing development? I imagine that might help\nthose who just want to use git (like me) to find their way around.\n\nJust an idea ...\n\nThanks,\nTilman\n\n-- \nTilman Schmidt E-Mail: tilman@imap.cc\nBonn, Germany\nDiese Nachricht besteht zu 100% aus wiederverwerteten Bits.\nUngeöffnet mindestens haltbar bis: (siehe Rückseite)\n\n"},{"id":"71155","messageId":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803060121360.15786@racer.site","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"47CF2F61.5060208@imap.cc","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-03-06T00:26:58Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T00:26:58Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"Hi,\n\nOn Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n\n> would it be possible to have separate mailing lists for usage topics and \n> for discussions of ongoing development? I imagine that might help those \n> who just want to use git (like me) to find their way around.\n\nAFAIAC you can have your \"users-only\" mailing list. Personally, I will \nnever look at it, though, since all I am interested in is the development \nof Git. If that holds true for the majority of Git _developers_, it might \neven be a bad idea to have a separate users' list, since then\n\n- no ideas from strictly-users would flow to the developers, and\n\n- new developments would not reach you, and\n\n- you would not get help by the people knowing the internals _deeply_.\n\nFWIW I think what you wish for is already covered -- and in an \ninstantaneous manner at that -- by the IRC channel.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n\n"},{"id":"71158","messageId":"7vskz4heeg.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803060121360.15786@racer.site","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Junio C Hamano","fromEmail":"gitster@pobox.com","sentAt":"2008-03-06T00:41:59Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T00:41:59Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"gitster@pobox.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/54884?v=4"},"body":"\nJohannes Schindelin writes:\n\n> On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n>\n>> would it be possible to have separate mailing lists for usage topics and \n>> for discussions of ongoing development? I imagine that might help those \n>> who just want to use git (like me) to find their way around.\n>\n> AFAIAC you can have your \"users-only\" mailing list. Personally, I will \n> never look at it, though, since all I am interested in is the development \n> of Git. If that holds true for the majority of Git _developers_, it might \n> even be a bad idea to have a separate users' list, since then\n>\n> - no ideas from strictly-users would flow to the developers, and\n>\n> - new developments would not reach you, and\n>\n> - you would not get help by the people knowing the internals _deeply_.\n\nPersonally, I suspect I would end up subscribing to both, but\ntwo mailing lists would make it much more cumbersome than\nnecessary to correlate the original user \"itch\" request that\ntriggered an enhancement, the discussion that clarified the\ndesign constraints and requirements, and the patch and the\nreview comments that lead to the final implementation,\nespecially if you do not encourage cross posting to both lists.\nAnd of course cross posting will make user-only list more\ntechnical which would defeat the original point of having two\nlists.\n\n\"users-only\" list could probably created by readers' MUA, by\npicking emails that do not have \"diff --git\" in its body; that\nwould probably be a good enough approximation for people who are\nnot interested in the technical discussions.\n"},{"id":"71163","messageId":"5fc54b450803051803t4dda4341ue3ac403c742f1903@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"7vskz4heeg.fsf@gitster.siamese.dyndns.org","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Jim Raden","fromEmail":"james.raden@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-06T02:03:27Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T02:03:27Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"james.raden@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/3783?v=4"},"body":"Perhaps adopting a convention for the subject line, like \"Usage question:\nxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\"? We're still a small list, so it wouldn't be horribly\ncumbersome. If the list grew beyond 150 or\nsoactive users, or if\nthe signal:noise ratio grew too low, perhaps then that\nwould be a good time to readdress the issue.\n\nI confess that I haven't had to deal with such things before, so I'm not\nfamiliar with the practices that may work in other groups faced with a\nsimilar issue.\n\nOn Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 7:41 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:\n\n>\n> Johannes Schindelin writes:\n>\n> > On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n> >\n> >> would it be possible to have separate mailing lists for usage topics\n> and\n> >> for discussions of ongoing development? I imagine that might help those\n> >> who just want to use git (like me) to find their way around.\n> >\n> > AFAIAC you can have your \"users-only\" mailing list. Personally, I will\n> > never look at it, though, since all I am interested in is the\n> development\n> > of Git. If that holds true for the majority of Git _developers_, it\n> might\n> > even be a bad idea to have a separate users' list, since then\n> >\n> > - no ideas from strictly-users would flow to the developers, and\n> >\n> > - new developments would not reach you, and\n> >\n> > - you would not get help by the people knowing the internals _deeply_.\n>\n> Personally, I suspect I would end up subscribing to both, but\n> two mailing lists would make it much more cumbersome than\n> necessary to correlate the original user \"itch\" request that\n> triggered an enhancement, the discussion that clarified the\n> design constraints and requirements, and the patch and the\n> review comments that lead to the final implementation,\n> especially if you do not encourage cross posting to both lists.\n> And of course cross posting will make user-only list more\n> technical which would defeat the original point of having two\n> lists.\n>\n> \"users-only\" list could probably created by readers' MUA, by\n> picking emails that do not have \"diff --git\" in its body; that\n> would probably be a good enough approximation for people who are\n> not interested in the technical discussions.\n>\n"},{"id":"71167","messageId":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803060327050.15786@racer.site","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"5fc54b450803051803t4dda4341ue3ac403c742f1903@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Johannes Schindelin","fromEmail":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","sentAt":"2008-03-06T02:29:47Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T02:29:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"johannes.schindelin@gmx.de","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/127790?v=4"},"body":"\nHi,\n\nOn Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Jim Raden wrote:\n\n> Perhaps adopting a convention for the subject line, like \"Usage \n> question: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\"? We're still a small list, so it \n> wouldn't be horribly cumbersome.\n\nI fail to see how that would accomplish something different from two \nmailing list, except the very likely chance that people are unaware of \nthat convention.\n\n> If the list grew beyond 150 or so \n> active users, or if the \n> signal:noise ratio grew too low, perhaps then that would be a good time \n> to readdress the issue.\n\nRecently Shawn mentioned that there are 853 members.\n\n> I confess that I haven't had to deal with such things before, so I'm not \n> familiar with the practices that may work in other groups faced with a \n> similar issue.\n\nIt is pretty easy to tell that somebody top-posting is \nnot a regular on this list\n\nDon't get me wrong, I'd _love_ to see a proper solution to the problem, \nalas, I do not see one yet.\n\nCiao,\nDscho\n"},{"id":"71170","messageId":"5fc54b450803051842p4163df5do995f82eb17b3c5ca@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"alpine.LSU.1.00.0803060327050.15786@racer.site","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Jim Raden","fromEmail":"james.raden@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-06T02:42:29Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T02:42:29Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"james.raden@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/3783?v=4"},"body":"\nMsysgit has apparently 60 members, at least according to\nhttp://groups.google.com/group/msysgit. It was that number to which I\nwas referring.\n\nI saw that this message was cross-posted to git@vger.kernel.org, which\nno doubt has many, many more than 60. Perhaps this is where the 853\nfigure comes from?\n\nOn Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:29 PM, Johannes Schindelin\n wrote:\n> Hi,\n>\n>\n> On Wed, 5 Mar 2008, Jim Raden wrote:\n>\n> > Perhaps adopting a convention for the subject line, like \"Usage\n> > question: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx\"? We're still a small list, so it\n> > wouldn't be horribly cumbersome.\n>\n> I fail to see how that would accomplish something different from two\n> mailing list, except the very likely chance that people are unaware of\n> that convention.\n\nYou're right, many people probably *would* be unaware of the\nconvention on anything other than a small list, i.e. 60 members. ;)\n\nIf the list were bigger, say for instance 853, the solution I proposed\nwould be too cumbersome.\n\n>\n> Recently Shawn mentioned that there are 853 members.\n\nThose 853 members are on msysgit or git@vger.kernel.org?\n\n>\n> Don't get me wrong, I'd _love_ to see a proper solution to the problem,\n> alas, I do not see one yet.\n>\n> Ciao,\n> Dscho\n>\n>\n"},{"id":"71173","messageId":"76718490803052029n52e739bby6009eea14c063891@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"47CF2F61.5060208@imap.cc","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Jay Soffian","fromEmail":"jaysoffian@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-06T04:29:09Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T04:29:09Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jaysoffian@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/155970?v=4"},"body":"\nOn Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 6:40 PM, Tilman Schmidt wrote:\n>\n> But I'd like to suggest something else still: seeing that my git\n> mailing list folder has already grown to 363 mails again, of which\n> probably only a small fraction will concern me as a user - would\n> it be possible to have separate mailing lists for usage topics and\n> for discussions of ongoing development? I imagine that might help\n> those who just want to use git (like me) to find their way around.\n\nThe mercurial lists are split-up this way. I hate it.\n\nAs for wanting a git-users list, just try filtering out everything from this\nlist with PATCH in the subject and you'll have a close-enough proxy, IMO.\n\nj.\n"},{"id":"71174","messageId":"76718490803052032m3dac9c14vc40b7d09fc4d271b@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"5fc54b450803051842p4163df5do995f82eb17b3c5ca@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: [msysGit] Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Jay Soffian","fromEmail":"jaysoffian@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-06T04:32:20Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T04:32:20Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"jaysoffian@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/155970?v=4"},"body":"On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Jim Raden wrote:\n\n> Those 853 members are on msysgit or git@vger.kernel.org?\n\nhttp://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#git\n\nOh no, only 851 members now. They're dropping like flies! :-)\n\nj.\n"},{"id":"71175","messageId":"5fc54b450803052033n66d43759y479f2cf2b9f8b990@mail.gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"76718490803052032m3dac9c14vc40b7d09fc4d271b@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Jim Raden","fromEmail":"james.raden@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-06T04:33:22Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T04:33:22Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"james.raden@gmail.com","avatar":"https://avatars.githubusercontent.com/u/3783?v=4"},"body":"\nObviously I must have scared them off with my suggestion! ;-)\n\nOn Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 11:32 PM, Jay Soffian wrote:\n> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Jim Raden wrote:\n>\n> > Those 853 members are on msysgit or git@vger.kernel.org?\n>\n> http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#git\n>\n> Oh no, only 851 members now. They're dropping like flies! :-)\n>\n> j.\n>\n"},{"id":"71236","messageId":"47CFD83F.8040603@gmail.com","threadId":"12437","inReplyTo":"5fc54b450803052033n66d43759y479f2cf2b9f8b990@mail.gmail.com","subject":"Re: [msysGit] Re: The 8th airing of the msysGit herald","fromName":"Paul Franz","fromEmail":"theandromedan@gmail.com","sentAt":"2008-03-06T11:40:47Z","receivedAt":"2008-03-06T11:40:47Z","isPatch":false,"sender":{"key":"theandromedan@gmail.com","avatar":null},"body":"\n\nJim Raden wrote:\n> Obviously I must have scared them off with my suggestion! ;-)\n>\n> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 11:32 PM, Jay Soffian wrote:\n> \n>> On Wed, Mar 5, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Jim Raden wrote:\n>>\n>> > Those 853 members are on msysgit or git@vger.kernel.org?\n>>\n>> http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html#git\n>>\n>> Oh no, only 851 members now. They're dropping like flies! :-)\n>>\n>> j.\n>>\n>> \n\nNah they switched to Mercurial. :-)\n\nPaul Franz\n"}]}